this post was submitted on 22 Jan 2025
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/0 Governance

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A community for discussion and democratic decision making in the Divisions by zero.

Anyone with voting rights can open a governance thread and initiate a vote or a discussion. There's no special keywords you must be aware of before you open a thread, but there are some. here's the governance thread manual.

Answers

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UPDATE: Proposal approved, see https://lemmy.dbzer0.com/post/36484194 for policy change announcement.


Ahoy me hearties!

We were thinking this might be a good test run topic for instance voting in our [email protected] community. Please be patient with us if anything breaks or isn't working properly. Feedback is welcome.

The voting topic

Given the current political backdrop and recent video of Elon Musk performing clearly identifiable Nazi salutes at the Presidential inauguration, some communities have started banning all links to X/Twitter. A couple of examples I noticed yesterday:

The vote is on whether our instance should follow suit and implement an instance-wide ban on X/Twitter links in posts and comments.

I've noticed some people suggesting allowing screenshots to still be used (e.g. for memes). Feel free to drop a comment if you have an opinion on that.

How to vote

Simply upvote or downvote this post. The /0 Bot will automatically calculate and update a tally of votes every 15 mins or so according to the voting rules (so don’t expect instant updates). An upvote is counted in favour of the resolution. A downvote is counted as against the resolution.

Note regarding crossposting: please be aware that only votes on the original post in [email protected] will be counted.

When to vote

Voting starts as of now. We'll close voting once the flow of votes stops - not sure exactly when that will be yet, but I'd like to keep the topic open for at least 2 or 3 days (maybe a week?) to give everyone a chance to vote.

Who can vote

TLDR here is that anyone can vote, but your votes will be weighted differently depending if you are a financial supporter, local instance member or external instance member.

As discussed in the announcement post, the initial plan was that only stakeholders can vote and open threads. That now includes everyone who is supporting us with any monthly donation amount.

Voting rights have also been extended so that votes of other local instance members who otherwise have no voting rights will be accounted at a rate of 1/100 from a random sample of up to 1000 of their votes. This means that a vote can go up to max +/- 10 from local community votes and it’s a fractional count (i.e. +1.1, or -0.7) which should make the local community sentiment an excellent tiebreaker, without overwhelming the people who are directly supporting the instance. Furthermore, I decided to display the “outsider sentiment” which is votes from non-valid-voting users from other instances. The outsider sentiment is only flavour (“Positive”, “Negative” etc) and is disregarded from the total. This is just shown for reference of the outsider sentiment which I think might be useful.

What constitutes a successful vote on a topic?

We are totally open to debate on this. I was thinking for this topic, a 2/3 majority vote would be a good target to aim for so we can be certain the community vote represents a clear majority of our users' opinions.

My thinking here is that if some topics are split close to 50/50 then achieving a 51% vote for example does not produce a clear mandate and may simply cause unnecessary division.

Having said that, I acknowledge a 2/3 majority is an arbitrary choice, but unless we implement a more complex voting system hopefully it is "good enough" to indicate a clear majority. As mentioned previously, feedback is very welcome and we will review and make adjustments where necessary.

Community participation

I strongly encourage all our instance members as well as subscribers from different instances to vote on this topic. If we only get a small handful of votes it's not going to be very representative of overall sentiment. This is a test run, so if things don't work out in terms of participation we will re-assess and perhaps revisit the topic.#

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[–] db0 23 points 4 months ago* (last edited 4 months ago) (2 children)

Note that while votes from stakeholders have more weight. However each stakeholder (i.e. anyone supporting us and MVPs MVP: a star icon, in orange-red, black and white colors ) can vouch for 2 others which will also give them a proper vote. Vouching can be done with a special PM to the bot .

So If you cannot support the instance financially, but feel you've been a valuable member of this instance nonetheless, please leave a comment and hopefully people will vouch for you. If this happens, your votes will be automatically counted on the next bot run.

PS: To see the vote tally, make sure you don't have @[email protected] (or all bots) blocked

[–] div0 6 points 4 months ago* (last edited 4 months ago)
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[–] div0 18 points 4 months ago* (last edited 4 months ago)

Acknowledged governance topic opened by https://lemmy.dbzer0.com/u/flatworm7591 Early Bird: a parrot, orangered colors Jolly Roger: an icon of pirate jolly roger skull wearing a hat, in orange-red, black and white colors A book with a loaf of bread in the cover  in orange-red, black and white colors First Mate: a pirate ship's steering wheel, orangered color

This is a simple majority vote. The current tally is as follows:

  • For: Salty Dog: An icon of two crossed cutlasses with a skull in the center in orange-red, black and white colors (2), Vouched: a minimalist compass icon. Orangered color (7), Deck Hand: An icon of anchor crossed with two staves in orange-red, black and white colors (5), First Mate: a pirate ship's steering wheel, orangered color (3), Powder Monkey: An icon of powder barrel in orange-red, black and white colors (2), Threadiverse Enjoyer: An icon of a doubloon with a black hole in the center in orange-red, black and white colors (1)
  • Against:
  • Local Community: +2.6
  • Outsider sentiment: Very Positive
  • Total: +22.6
  • Percentage: 100.00%

This vote will complete in 2 days


Reminder that this is a pilot process and results of voting are not set in stone.

[–] Martineski 31 points 4 months ago (1 children)

I'm for the ban of the links but not the screenshots. Screenshots without links will provide the content without giving an easy way to move the traffic there so it would be a positive change without hurting the activity on lemmy. Banning screenshots would add a lot to the modding workload as well which isn't great either regardless of if it's the mods taking care of it or the admins.

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[–] PugJesus 28 points 4 months ago (1 children)

Ban the links, allow the screenshots.

Banning screenshots seems like it would both be more difficult, and less relevant to the core issue - ie not giving the chief Nazi any traffic for his propaganda money sink. Especially since there's over a decade's worth of twitter screenshots used in memes - would there be a cutoff date Twitter screenshots would be checked for, or would even ancient screenshots be banned? The former seems like a lot of effort for very little payoff, while the latter seems a bit silly.

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[–] gamermanh 22 points 4 months ago (2 children)

I'll add myself to the flood of people agreeing that links should be scrubbed but not screenshots

Consume their content without feeding their ad dollars, fuck em

[–] db0 6 points 4 months ago (1 children)

It's really not just about the ad dollars. The idea is that even allowing screenshots of Xitter memes, is promoting this as a platform worth participating in.

[–] hemko 11 points 4 months ago (2 children)

allowing screenshots of Xitter memes, is promoting this as a platform worth participating in.

Yeah, kind of, but I feel like it clashes with the "information wants to be free" -sentiment. I view it the same as pirating a Disney movie in a sense

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[–] chicken 17 points 4 months ago (2 children)

Another reason for banning Twitter links: If you aren't logged in, you can't actually see the discussion, so the link is useless and basically spam advertising to get a Twitter account. I've always been really annoyed seeing Twitter links for this reason and the fact that the platform is garbage in general. Duplicating the content in a screenshot or some other way is a way better option.

[–] __Lost__ 6 points 4 months ago

Yes, as someone without a xitter account, the links are completely useless. Screenshots are stupid, but I can at least see them.

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[–] ShareMySims 17 points 4 months ago* (last edited 4 months ago) (1 children)

I saw one of those posts earlier and had a feeling it might come up here, glad it has.

Am for banning links, and also for allowing screenshots.

E: if something of value can only and exclusively be found on there, then I guess using a different front end to link it wouldn't be terrible, but in the same way people don't really link to truth social because there's nothing of value to link to there, I honestly can't see there being anything worth linking to that would be exclusively on xitter.

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[–] nsrxn 16 points 4 months ago* (last edited 4 months ago) (2 children)

while I think it should be discouraged to use Twitter at all, I don't think a ban on the links is the right move. sometimes, something may only be there, and allowing people to investigate it themselves via a link is important for transparency.

[–] db0 14 points 4 months ago

Thanks for your comments. Indeed actually commenting with your perspective and not just voting is very valuable for such processes.

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[–] alsaaas 16 points 4 months ago* (last edited 4 months ago) (2 children)

I'll add to the mix: agree on banning the links but not screenshots

and allowing nitter links (!). since that platform pretty much denies most of the profit and respects privacy

mb a bot that provides nitter links automatically would be a good thing? (a general redirector would be cool as well. mb akin to the browser extension libredirect?)

[–] antonim 6 points 4 months ago (1 children)

nitter

Almost completely dead, but there's xcancel.com which somehow works. So, that's the option... for now.

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[–] flicker 16 points 4 months ago (2 children)

I'm on team ban the site, allow screenshots. The latter is against my better judgement, but there are some primary sources only attainable through those hellsites, and there seems to be no end to people willing to go and fetch those screenshots anyway...

This straight-forward, consent-of-the-governed thing is really doing it for me, and if we're going to have a culture, spitting on nazis is the one for me!

[–] Flatworm7591 10 points 4 months ago

[...] if we’re going to have a culture, spitting on nazis is the one for me!

Right there with ya buddy.

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[–] WatDabney 14 points 4 months ago (1 children)

Really, I think that direct links should've been at least heavily discouraged if not banned outright the moment that Vichy Twitter started requiring an active login to follow them.

Now that Musk has dropped the last vestiges of his mask and revealed himself as a nazi, links absolutely should be banned. Nobody here should ever provide that nazi cesspit with even one single click.

The only thing Musk cares about more than imposing his warped vision on the world is money. He needs to be denied both.

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[–] Nora 13 points 4 months ago (3 children)

So I'm super new to this instance, like literally applied last night new.

Personally, I'm happy that people are trying to ban x/twitter. The links suck to use if you don't have an account, and the platform is becoming increasingly toxic.

I do like the compromise of allowing screenshots too; however, I also am recognizing that there's a higher risk of faked screenshots leading to misinformation. I suspect there would be very little in truth, but hopefully it is at least worth considering.

[–] [email protected] 9 points 4 months ago* (last edited 4 months ago)

95% of twitter screenshots are memes.

But I think in case people want to share actual “news” (ie. statements from famous people/organisations that haven’t left twitter), an archive link would work well.

(Also Welcome!)

[–] Blaze 6 points 4 months ago (1 children)
[–] Nora 9 points 4 months ago

Thanks! I used reddit for years, then I went to lemmy.world after the whole migration stuff. I learned about db0 way back then due to my interests in piracy, but I had already created a .world account. I decided recently, that I should care more about where I am online and what I post there, so I've been slowly in the process of getting rid of all the shit social medias I've held onto for years. While I don't think there's anything particularly wrong with lemmy.world, I figured I should go all in on this move.

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[–] VolumetricShitCompressor 12 points 4 months ago* (last edited 4 months ago) (1 children)

Ban links, but allow screenshots sounds good. That way we don't shut ourselves out of knowing whats up, but don't give any traffic to that shithole.

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[–] Blaze 12 points 4 months ago (4 children)

I won't vote as I'm not using this account as my main, but I just want to highlight the work to organize this vote. Impressive!

[–] db0 11 points 4 months ago (2 children)

I gave you the MVP because you do a lot of effort around the threadiverse as a whole not just for this instance. not to mention promoting our comms a lot, If you prefer that I MVP your external main, just tell me which one but we welcome your vote.

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[–] CosmicTurtle0 11 points 4 months ago (1 children)

I'm all for banning Twitter and any Twitter front ends. Kinda like reddit, connections to Twitter will be counted by Twitter as views and helping them get more ad buys is not in our mutual interests.

Screenshots I think are okay since they aren't hosted on Twitter or link to Twitter. If people want to provide a source link, I think that'd be okay but only as part of the post body, not as a direct post link (if that makes sense).

I don't think I have a vote that counts but I voted for.

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[–] codexarcanum 11 points 4 months ago* (last edited 4 months ago) (1 children)

I'm in the "Ban links, Allow screenshots" camp but with some further thoughts.

@[email protected] compared xitter to turdth social and I think that's excellent precedent to draw further attention to. The reason to block xitter isn't (just) that Musk is a mask off nazi, but that any "information" sourced from that site must be treated as suspect. Little things such as the "like" count on posts we know are manipulated already, so the notion that a post is viral or popular on xitter (and thus worthy of drawing attention off-site to it) should be scrutinized. It's not social media, it's a propaganda engine.

That said, even with the EU (finally) fleeing the hell site and hopefully many users and (with their pressure, eventually, perhaps) some american companies and government departments.... even with that, there's some big names and funny people that post there and if someone wants to bring over a screenshot, I don't think that should be disallowed. Particularly since the POTUS and his cronies frequently air their vile thoughts there.

Likewise, I'm not totally against non-top-level links (so source links only in comments or post body) that are through some front-end, proxy, archive, or other means of preventing impressions from reaching the actual site. I think it's overly dogmatic to outright ban all connections to the xitter. Sometimes a plumber needs to know where to look when they're researching a problem.

Edit: On an unrelated note...

I'm very excited to see this kind of community discussion and vote occurring. Feels like a pretty solid consensus on this issue, but I'm looking forward to seeing this process play out for other decisions. I just moved to dbzer0 about a month ago and a big reason was to connect more with a like-minded community online. I've missed the golden age of the internet forum--and apparently I've also missed the golden age of the actual town forum as well!--so I find this whole "virtual anarchic democracy in action" quite thrilling!

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[–] [email protected] 10 points 4 months ago (3 children)

Not voting as it's not my instance, just popping in to commend you on community focused decision making

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[–] shittydwarf 10 points 4 months ago (1 children)

Definitely think we should ban direct links

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[–] freethemedia 10 points 4 months ago (1 children)

Boycotts are one of two real effective ways of killing monopolies. It’s like their kryptonite.

Any boycott against a facist corporate hegemony is a go from me.

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[–] Numuruzero 9 points 4 months ago (1 children)

Aye for banning links, keeping screenshots. To provide another argument, I would in a way prefer to have a way to know what's going on in the cesspit while visiting as little as possible. There's an argument to be made about not even looking, but someone has set this pot on the heat and I'd really like to know if it's going to boil over.

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[–] verynotsure 9 points 4 months ago (1 children)

I'm also on the "ban the links, not the screenshots" idea. Although if X users are still reposted outside of their own platform they'll never move from it. So I'm not very sure, who would have thought ?

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[–] FediNeko 9 points 4 months ago (1 children)

I'm new here, but still going to comment on the screenshots.

A: ban the links. B: I would say screenshots should be allowed since the point is to curb the traffic and anything in a distasteful screenshot could fall under other rules in general anyway.

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[–] Redjard 9 points 4 months ago (2 children)

If this passes I think a good approach is to ban all links to twitter and to alternative frontends, and to ban screenshots etc. showcasing a characteristic look of twitter.
Screenshots of xcancel would be allowed (I think it is unrealistic telling the various themes appart from mastodon etc.), my main hope though is that it leads to people uploading files on lemmy and copying the text into the post/comment body, securing and dissociating the content, and also displacing twitter in search results.
All that with minor or no sourcing, at best a small "from twitter" somewhere.

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[–] hemko 8 points 4 months ago (2 children)

I'm also in favour of banning links, but allowing screenshots. If source is absolutely needed, a nitter (or maybe archive?) one should be used.

I'm also in favour of the same for meta platforms and Reddit, as well as any paywalled articles

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[–] confusedwiseman 8 points 4 months ago (3 children)

Aye, in favor of banning links and stopping them from getting the traffic. I agree screenshots should be allowed.

Also providing support for 2/3 majority for changes.

I’m gonna state it now. I’m going to try to be more active in this community and make it home. I left the R site long ago, and I have to say I really like how this is going.

@[email protected] feel free to tap me if you think I can be useful for any of the work you have planned.

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[–] The_Helmet_Stays_On 8 points 4 months ago (1 children)

I am all for it. Ban away.

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[–] Changer098 8 points 4 months ago (1 children)

Appreciate you and fuck nazis

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[–] tenchiken 7 points 4 months ago (1 children)

While I personally detest most screenshot style content that isn't explicitly meme specific (ie: the content itself, like stupid sms shots), I can ignore most of these. I just don't think banning them is worth it with the modding reqs.

I vote ban links since this already matches my personal ethos. I've blocked Xitter at my router for a year+ now.

That said, I think perhaps there should be a process potentially to allow for a mod to override the ban for certain front end links on an ad-hoc basis, in case there's a valid useful situation where alternatives are lacking. Examples being natural disaster etc...

If a mod can pin a flag to posts somehow to allow, I'd start that way. This could well prove useless, but I prefer to be prepared if it's not a huge burden to accomplish.

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[–] a_wild_mimic_appears 7 points 4 months ago (2 children)

I agree on the ban, screenshots are fine if there isn't another source for the content. i also want to make people aware about this change.org petition for an EU-wide ban: https://www.change.org/p/ban-x-in-europe-elon-musk-must-be-stopped-in-eu

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[–] ElCrusher 7 points 4 months ago (1 children)

I'm for banning any direct connection to Twitter/X or any front end thereof. Fuck that Nazi bastard. I'm not thrilled with screenshot but at least it doesn't directly monetize him. I get that screenshot can lead to misinformation, but it seems to me that the worst of Xitter is hate and misinformation anyway. By actually going on Xitter not only do you monetize and empower him more but you're exposed to more of the same. I'd be more approving of screenshots from before Muskrat took over.

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[–] McPoops 7 points 4 months ago (2 children)

Honestly, links to xitter were annoying even before since it always tried to force me to create an account any time I clicked one. I'm fine with removing all links to anything Musk or Zuckerberg related.

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[–] ye_olde_noob 7 points 4 months ago (1 children)

Im voting yes just because I dont want my feed clogged by twitter reposts

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[–] cabb 7 points 4 months ago (1 children)

I think direct links should be banned. Screenshots aren't great but we already don't have that much content across Lemmy as a whole so I think we should allow them for the foreseeable future.

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[–] brickfrog 7 points 4 months ago (1 children)

I think banning those links makes sense, at this point that site just doesn't get along with the general spirit of this community. No strong opinion on whether to allow proxy links or images but maybe that's okay for people that just desperately need to reference that site for whatever reason.

In the grand scheme never really understood why people share those links to begin with, many of us don't have nor want an account on that site so it's not like we can follow those links anyway. No loss on my end.

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[–] Taser 7 points 4 months ago* (last edited 4 months ago) (2 children)

One more for banning direct links, allowing screenshots (preferably anonymized, but that should be more discouraged than deleted).

To echo other comments, don't support that shitty platform. "Transparency" can be done by the individual through whatever means they find appropriate.

Thanks for bringing this up for a vote!

Edit: I'm all for an eventual full ban, btw. That spigot will run too foul, eventually.

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