this post was submitted on 01 Jul 2025
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Science Memes

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[–] [email protected] 187 points 1 week ago (2 children)

With straight diagonal lines.

[–] [email protected] 75 points 1 week ago (1 children)
[–] [email protected] 52 points 1 week ago

hey it's no longer June, homophobia is back on the menu

[–] [email protected] 25 points 1 week ago (4 children)

Why are there gaps on either side of the upper-right square? Seems like shoving those closed (like the OP image) would allow a little more twist on the center squares.

[–] [email protected] 25 points 1 week ago

I think this diagram is less accurate. The original picture doesn’t have that gap

[–] [email protected] 14 points 1 week ago

You have a point. That's obnoxious. I just wanted straight lines. I'll see if I can find another.

[–] [email protected] 14 points 1 week ago (1 children)

there's a gap on both, just in different places and you can get from one to the other just by sliding. The constraints are elsewhere so wouldn't allow you to twist.

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[–] [email protected] 152 points 1 week ago

Oh so you're telling me that my storage unit is actually incredibly well optimised for space efficiency?

Nice!

[–] [email protected] 78 points 1 week ago (1 children)

if I ever have to pack boxes like this I'm going to throw up

[–] [email protected] 16 points 1 week ago

I've definitely packed a box like this, but I've never packed boxes like this 😳

[–] [email protected] 62 points 1 week ago (3 children)
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[–] [email protected] 54 points 1 week ago

If there was a god, I'd imagine them designing the universe and giggling like an idiot when they made math.

[–] [email protected] 52 points 1 week ago

You may not like it but this is what peak performance looks like.

[–] [email protected] 45 points 1 week ago (3 children)

Bees seeing this: "OK, screw it, we're making hexagons!"

[–] [email protected] 31 points 1 week ago (3 children)

Fun fact: Bees actually make round holes, the hexagon shape forms as the wax dries.

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[–] [email protected] 14 points 1 week ago (1 children)
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[–] [email protected] 41 points 1 week ago

Here's a much more elegant solution for 17

[–] [email protected] 39 points 1 week ago (5 children)

Can someone explain to me in layman's terms why this is the most efficient way?

[–] [email protected] 145 points 1 week ago* (last edited 1 week ago) (7 children)

These categories of geometric problem are ridiculously difficult to find the definitive perfect solution for, which is exactly why people have been grinding on them for decades, and mathematicians can't say any more than "it's the best one found so far"

For this particular problem the diagram isn't answering "the most efficient way to pack some particular square" but "what is the smallest square that can fit 17 unit-sized (1x1) squares inside it" - with the answer here being 4.675 unit length per side.

Trivially for 16 squares they would fit inside a grid of 4x4 perfectly, with four squares on each row, nice and tidy. To fit just one more square we could size the container up to 5x5, and it would remain nice and tidy, but there is then obviously a lot of empty space, which suggests the solution must be in-between. But if the solution is in between, then some squares must start going slanted to enable the outer square to reduce in size, as it is only by doing this we can utilise unfilled gaps to save space by poking the corners of other squares into them.

So, we can't answer what the optimal solution exactly is, or prove none is better than this, but we can certainly demonstrate that the solution is going to be very ugly and messy.

Another similar (but less ugly) geometric problem is the moving sofa problem which has again seen small iterations over a long period of time.

[–] [email protected] 24 points 1 week ago (2 children)

Lol, the ambidextrous sofa. It's a butt plug.

[–] [email protected] 10 points 1 week ago (2 children)
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[–] cyrano 9 points 1 week ago

Thanks for the explanation

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[–] [email protected] 23 points 1 week ago (1 children)

It's not necessarily the most efficient, but it's the best guess we have. This is largely done by trial and error. There is no hard proof or surefire way to calculate optimal arrangements; this is just the best that anyone's come up with so far.

It's sort of like chess. Using computers, we can analyze moves and games at a very advanced level, but we still haven't "solved" chess, and we can't determine whether a game or move is perfect in general. There's no formula to solve it without exhaustively searching through every possible move, which would take more time than the universe has existed, even with our most powerful computers.

Perhaps someday, someone will figure out a way to prove this mathematically.

[–] [email protected] 8 points 1 week ago (1 children)

They proved it for n=5 and 10.

[–] exasperation 12 points 1 week ago

And the solutions we have for 5 or 10 appear elegant: perfect 45° angles, symmetry in the packed arrangement.

5 and 10 are interesting because they are one larger than a square number (2^2 and 3^2 respectively). So one might naively assume that the same category of solution could fit 4^2 + 1, where you just take the extra square and try to fit it in a vertical gap and a horizontal gap of exactly the right size to fit a square rotated 45°.

But no, 17 is 4^2 + 1 and this ugly abomination is proven to be more efficient.

[–] [email protected] 21 points 1 week ago (8 children)

Any other configurations results in a larger enclosed square. This is the most optimal way to pack 17 squares that we’ve found

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[–] red_bull_of_juarez 14 points 1 week ago (2 children)

It crams the most boxes into the given square. If you take the seven angled boxes out and put them back in an orderly fashion, I think you can fit six of them. The last one won't fit. If you angle them, this is apparently the best solution.

What I wonder is if this has any practical applications.

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[–] [email protected] 10 points 1 week ago* (last edited 1 week ago)

It's a problem about minimizing the side length of the outer rectangle in order to fit rectangles of side length 1 into it.

It's somehow the most efficient way for 17 rectangles because math.

These are the solutions for the numbers next to 17:

[–] [email protected] 21 points 1 week ago (2 children)

Is this a hard limit we’ve proven or can we still keep trying?

[–] [email protected] 37 points 1 week ago (2 children)

We actually haven't found a universal packing algorithm, so it's on a case-by-case basis. This is the best we've found so far for this case (17 squares in a square).

[–] [email protected] 11 points 1 week ago

Figuring out 1-4 must have been sooo tough

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[–] [email protected] 32 points 1 week ago

It's the best we've found so far

[–] [email protected] 20 points 1 week ago* (last edited 1 week ago)

Do you know how inspiring documentaries describe maths are everywhere, telling us about the golden ratio in art and animal shells, and pi, and perfect circles and Euler's number and natural growth, etc? Well, this, I can see it really happening in the world.

[–] [email protected] 16 points 1 week ago (5 children)

It's important to note that while this seems counterintuitive, it's only the most efficient because the small squares' side length is not a perfect divisor of the large square's.

[–] [email protected] 10 points 1 week ago (2 children)

What? No. The divisibility of the side lengths have nothing to do with this.

The problem is what's the smallest square that can contain 17 identical squares. If there were 16 squares it would be simply 4x4.

[–] [email protected] 14 points 1 week ago

He's saying the same thing. Because it's not an integer power of 2 you can't have a integer square solution. Thus the densest packing puts some boxes diagonally.

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[–] [email protected] 14 points 1 week ago (1 children)

That tiny gap on the right is killing me

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[–] [email protected] 11 points 1 week ago

I hate this so much

[–] TimewornTraveler 11 points 1 week ago

the line of man is straight ; the line of god is crooked

stop quoting Nietzsche you fucking fools

[–] [email protected] 11 points 1 week ago (5 children)

Is this confirmed? Like yea the picture looks legit, but anybody do this with physical blocks or at least something other than ms paint?

[–] [email protected] 9 points 1 week ago* (last edited 1 week ago)

It is confirmed. I don't understand it very well, but I think this video is pretty decent at explaining it.

https://youtu.be/RQH5HBkVtgM

The proof is done with raw numbers and geometry so doing it with physical objects would be worse, even the MS paint is a bad way to present it but it's easier on the eyes than just numbers.

Mathematicians would be very excited if you could find a better way to pack them such that they can be bigger.

So it's not like there is no way to improve it. It's just that we haven't found it yet.

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