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XMPP vs everything else (discuss.privacyguides.net)

submitted 22 hours ago by [email protected] to c/[email protected]

9 comments fedilink hide all child comments

cross-posted from: https://sh.itjust.works/post/40286422

Is UX/UI and marketing really the reason XMPP lags behind Signal/Matrix/Telegram?

Matrix is going Freemium and WhatsApp is adding ads, which is sparking the annual "time to leave [app]" threads.

Users don't care that much about privacy, but they do care about enshittification, so XMPP not being built for it shouldn't be a problem.

Meanwhile, I've heard for years that XMPP has solved a lot of the problems that lead more popular apps to fail.

Is it really just a marketing/UX/UI problem?

If XMPP had a killer app with all the features that Signal/Whatsapp/Telegram has, would it have as many users?

If not, why does it keep getting out-adopted by new apps and protocols?

top 9 comments

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[–] [email protected] 4 points 13 hours ago* (last edited 13 hours ago)

I've run an XMPP server for a small online user group for about 7 years. It was relatively simple to get a basic server up and running.

One challenge came when my wife and I decided to use it as our everyday mobile messaging service. I had to learn about and configure a number of extensions to get Prosody working well with Conversations (Android) and Monal (iOS).

Another challenge was filtering spam. I posted my administrator XMPP address online and got hammered with spam. It took a while to figure out how to effectively combat it.

With respect to why it's not more popular, imagine if you were trying to sell people on email (with no business use-case). It's a generic federated protocol. I don't know if you can get much more bland.

[–] [email protected] 15 points 20 hours ago

xmpp is closer to IRC than to modern communications protocols. End-to-end encryption, for example, is an optional protocol extension, which hasn't even been formally finalized yet (and probably won't ever be, given it's been 10 years now)

[–] [email protected] 23 points 21 hours ago (2 children)

Granted, it has been a couple years and it could be a bit better, but XMPP is a horrible, horrible protocol to work with. From the ground up.

Matrix might be bloated nowadays, but that's nothing to the horribleness of xmpp.

source: I wrote the first xmpp/matrix bridge in 2015

[–] [email protected] 4 points 16 hours ago (1 children)

With the most expertise in this thread, may I ask your take on matrix vs irc horribleness?

[–] [email protected] 4 points 13 hours ago

I never really did very much with IRC on a protocol level. I just know that it's ultra simple, and suffers similar problems as xmpp: it's not really meant for multidevices with a shared backlog.

I'm sure there are projects to enhance IRC with proper e2e encryption and chat sync, but you really want something that has modern usage in mind from the ground up. IRC and xmpp are just very 90s.

note: it's now been a couple years since I last took a deeper dive into xmpp and matrix, so things might have changed. But especially for xmpp, I can't really see how without breaking compatibility. The protocol is just very... special in its own way

[–] [email protected] 4 points 20 hours ago (2 children)

I don't usually hear this opinion.

Most of the time, it's about how XMPP has everything you need without the boat of a Matrix server.

[–] [email protected] 2 points 7 hours ago

Conversely, I have seen this opinion expressed a few times. I can’t judge the accuracy but there seem to be more than a few people sharing it.

[–] [email protected] 12 points 20 hours ago

Eh, only if you squint reaaaaally hard

In practice, you will run in constant compatibility problems. Let alone barely functional multi device support

[–] [email protected] 8 points 21 hours ago

It's not the reason, but it certainly is a reason.

Another reason is. That it is an old protocol from the late 90s. And there isn't a lot of Buzz about it these days. A lot of the problematic centralization we all now recognize was just becoming the norm.

Feature parity at the time is also another big hurdle. Things we all take for granted especially in this day and age Avatar profile pictures etc. Jabber/xmpp did not have that for years. It may be a useless feature in terms of sending messages. people still like personalization etc. And it's hard to convince people to switch if they have to give it up.

Jump to today. And arguably services like Twitter Mastodon Facebook Etc all sort of fill that Niche to an extent. Maybe not as well. But enough again that it's going to be hard to get people to switch to yet another system