this post was submitted on 19 Dec 2024
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How W. Labov used a bunny to examine children's language abilities (lemmy.dbzer0.com)
submitted 6 months ago* (last edited 6 months ago) by antonim to c/[email protected]
21 comments fedilink hide all child comments
 

As W. Labov has passed away, I came across a comment reposting this screenshotted request, along with the paper in question:

https://betsysneller.github.io/pdfs/Labov1966-Rabbit.pdf

The paper is quite a rollercoaster, ranging from describing of disturbingly racist ideas about native Hawaiian and Black children that some scientists still pushed at the time (1970!*), to Labov's own disarmingly cute and humane solution to the issue of testing children's language abilities.

Edit: *1970 - according to the article itself, which is apparently based on Labov's 1970 talk; however, the URL suggests that the article was published in 1966, which is contradictory. I'll try to find out where and when this was actually published...

Edit 2: It looks like it is from 1970, from Working Papers in Communication, vol. 1 (Honolulu: Pacific Speech Association). It is surprising that a recently published book also claims that it's from 1966, probably the authors got the file from the same URL with the wrong year.

Edit 3: The original Twitter thread: https://xcancel.com/betsysneller/status/1516848959284678656

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[–] [email protected] 47 points 6 months ago (4 children)

This reminds me of my experience when I was entering kindergarten.

There was a basic test/interview to assess reading skills to determine whether a kid should be in the "this kid doesn't even know the alphabet" group or the "this kid can at least read a tiny bit" group. I was already a fluent reader (of books aimed at 5-year-olds, of course), but they tried to put me in the group that didn't even know the alphabet.

I was afraid to read because I found the test taker intimidating. Fortunately, my mother knew that I knew how to read and she insisted that I go into the other group.

[–] [email protected] 26 points 6 months ago (2 children)

My favorite ADHD moment as a child was my school insisting I could read because I could answer the questions about the book.

My mother took me home and demanded I read the book. I still couldn't answer the questions.

Frustrated she made me read the book out loud to her. I did so perfectly. Still couldn't answer the questions. I read just fine, I just had trouble paying attention. I read the entire book out loud while thinking entirely about something else.

[–] [email protected] 15 points 6 months ago (1 children)

My step brother had a somewhat similar story but in reverse. He couldn't read, though. He memorized the words of the picture books. So he could go through them all beginning to end and answer questions about the stories, but if you opened to a random page, he had no idea.

[–] [email protected] 3 points 6 months ago (1 children)

I had that same problem as a kid because my mom read to us every night and I had all the books memorized. They realized I basically couldn't read along with severe test taking anxiety, so they nearly put me in special ed in first grade. Somehow I ended up in gifted ed by second grade

[–] [email protected] 2 points 6 months ago

That's almost exactly what happened. Except my stepbrother did it intentionally. Not that he was trying to pass a test or anything. But he would intentionally request the same books over and over until he had memorized them.

[–] 0x0 9 points 6 months ago (1 children)

I think you left out the word "not" at least twice?

[–] [email protected] 3 points 6 months ago* (last edited 6 months ago) (1 children)

I found the one time I left the word out. Where was the other? Edit: there it is. Like I said, ADHD, I tend to just skim read. It's lightning fast for me but it's hard to proof read that way

[–] [email protected] 3 points 6 months ago (1 children)

You can edit your comments.

[–] [email protected] -1 points 6 months ago

I can also go kayaking. I choose not to

[–] [email protected] 12 points 6 months ago

because I found the test taker intimidating

Yeah honestly I'm pretty convinced that a large part of children's "ability" depends solely on who's testing them, and on how well they feel that day.

[–] antonim 11 points 6 months ago* (last edited 6 months ago) (1 children)

I had a similar sort of experience myself (probably lots of people did) when I was at a psychiatric hospital, I was a kid, 15 or 16 or so. I had to solve some exams for what I guess was like two hours, and I was going crazy by the end, exhausted and losing focus. And based on that crap they were supposed to rate my cognitive abilites and emotional state. Thankfully I simply didn't return there, no consequences, but it's terrifying to think that some kids' futures and whole lives were determined by such bullshit, and even more, as the article shows, that it could act as quasiscientific legitimisation of racism.

I wonder at what point do people forget how they were as kids?

[–] [email protected] 6 points 6 months ago

That's insane. Who in there right mind could think anybody would perform well in that sort of stressful situation?

[–] [email protected] 10 points 6 months ago (1 children)

I actually tutored a kid to get her into kindergarten, lol. She was bright but her first language was Korean and she was shy about speaking in English, maybe also shy about white people. So we basically hung out and "read" picture books together, my role just being to give positive reactions to whatever she said. And she got in, so it worked I guess.

[–] [email protected] 5 points 6 months ago (1 children)

I'm guessing this was a private kindergarten?

[–] [email protected] 4 points 6 months ago

Yes indeed.

[–] [email protected] 15 points 6 months ago

Genius outside the box thinking.

[–] [email protected] 8 points 6 months ago

As I'm reading this I'm getting angry. Not because of Labov himself (he's simply denouncing this crap), but because this sort of adult that he's describing is the one that I'd expect screaming with children.

And I'm glad that nowadays this sort of researcher would be barred from doing field work.

The rabbit approach was genius. Just like hiding himself behind the cloth hangers in another study; sure, nowadays this raises ethical concerns, but in his times it was the way to register spontaneous speech.

[–] [email protected] 6 points 6 months ago

disturbingly racist ideas about native Hawaiian and Black children that some scientists still pushed at the time (1970!*),

Until a couple years ago, one of the main training manuals for nurses had racist and sexist assumptions about pain resistance.

[–] [email protected] 5 points 6 months ago

Thanks for sharing the full paper— that was interesting!

[–] [email protected] 2 points 5 months ago

Something i've concluded about myself (i have autism) is that my ability to communicate pretty much perfectly reflects the ability of the person i'm trying to communicate with.
If they're good at talking then i'm fairly easy to talk to, but if they mumble or don't know the language well then it's basically impossible, especially if they don't take the initiative at all.