reedbend

cross-posted from: https://discuss.tchncs.de/post/5236945

I'm curious if anyone out there reading who lives with ADHD and/or ASD w/executive dysfunction ... when it comes to tasks that aren't just your own but that involve (or are needed by) others, for example household tasks when living with others ... do you find that you actually need consensus and/or discussion on the topic of tasks in order to get them done?

What I'm realizing is that for me, part of executive dysfunction means I don't have the internal watchdog that keeps track of stuff I need to do in relation to others, and just personally speaking I cannot rely on (or be tormented by) guilt as a way to work around the lack of a watchdog.

The one thing that does work for me is talking about it with the people involved, especially if they are people I respect or care about. Either coming to consensus, or at least maintaining shared understanding of the shared space / task list / etc. For some reason, the process of coming to a shared-state perspective on shared effort, and understanding how my responsibilities impact others and at what time others need me to have completed them, is like sprinkling magic pixie dust on the task-item in my brain that allows me to remember it exists at all once it's 5 days later in the week or whatever. I still suck at scheduling and prioritizing and whatnot, but at least I remember the damn task exists and am trying to get it done!

The reason I've figured all this out is kinda grim, long story short I ended up on my ass about 10 years ago, and lost my home about 7 years ago, and then people took me in... and those people don't do the above. They don't discuss things and they don't build consensus or shared state, they just do stuff. And it's utterly and completely paralyzing because I spent the first 3 decades of my life living with people who did discuss things that affect others around them, and now my entire repertoire of human behavior is based on the premise that people attempt to keep each other informed like this, and that's just not the case for a great number of people.

And that process of communication or shared-state rehashing, which I thought all humans engaged in because both my parents did and almost everybody I lived with early in life did, is absolutely critical to wallpapering over my lack of ability to keep track of / remember that tasks exist, especially as my level of overwhelm gets high or my energy gets low.

What really made this sink in was remembering that my dad had endless conflicts with a kid of his from another marriage when he would go to visit, because she also doesn't communicate like this, and just like me, my dad was also absolutely critically dependent on it in order to be able to do anything at all really. In fact that's how I realized that he had a very similar neurological profile to me. In some ways our behavior is starkly alike and now I understand why.

BTW, that dad who almost certainly would be diagnosed with the same dreamy 'primarily inattentive' adult ADHD that I have today, got a Ph.D., retired as a Lt. Colonel in the Air Force, and went on to lead a small college language department and then have a long retirement doing occasional work in advanced linguistics. He later decided to learn Italian, and succeeded, in his 70s. Every time in his life when he had either autonomy and resources to do his own thing, or external structure + social glue that agreed with him, he was able to excel. Without those conditions, he would drift badly and become depressed. Understanding this has helped me understanding myself. My dad was a poor parent in a lot of other ways, but his ability to succeed when he had enough pieces of the puzzle does give me hope.

I'm curious if anyone out there reading who lives with ADHD and/or ASD w/executive dysfunction ... when it comes to tasks that aren't just your own but that involve (or are needed by) others, for example household tasks when living with others ... do you find that you actually need consensus and/or discussion on the topic of tasks in order to get them done?

What I'm realizing is that for me, part of executive dysfunction means I don't have the internal watchdog that keeps track of stuff I need to do in relation to others, and just personally speaking I cannot rely on (or be tormented by) guilt as a way to work around the lack of a watchdog.

The one thing that does work for me is talking about it with the people involved, especially if they are people I respect or care about. Either coming to consensus, or at least maintaining shared understanding of the shared space / task list / etc. For some reason, the process of coming to a shared-state perspective on shared effort, and understanding how my responsibilities impact others and at what time others need me to have completed them, is like sprinkling magic pixie dust on the task-item in my brain that allows me to remember it exists at all once it's 5 days later in the week or whatever. I still suck at scheduling and prioritizing and whatnot, but at least I remember the damn task exists and am trying to get it done!

The reason I've figured all this out is kinda grim, long story short I ended up on my ass about 10 years ago, and lost my home about 7 years ago, and then people took me in... and those people don't do the above. They don't discuss things and they don't build consensus or shared state, they just do stuff. And it's utterly and completely paralyzing because I spent the first 3 decades of my life living with people who did discuss things that affect others around them, and now my entire repertoire of human behavior is based on the premise that people attempt to keep each other informed like this, and that's just not the case for a great number of people.

And that process of communication or shared-state rehashing, which I thought all humans engaged in because both my parents did and almost everybody I lived with early in life did, is absolutely critical to wallpapering over my lack of ability to keep track of / remember that tasks exist, especially as my level of overwhelm gets high or my energy gets low.

What really made this sink in was remembering that my dad had endless conflicts with a kid of his from another marriage when he would go to visit, because she also doesn't communicate like this, and just like me, my dad was also absolutely critically dependent on it in order to be able to do anything at all really. In fact that's how I realized that he had a very similar neurological profile to me. In some ways our behavior is starkly alike and now I understand why.

BTW, that dad who almost certainly would be diagnosed with the same dreamy 'primarily inattentive' adult ADHD that I have today, got a Ph.D., retired as a Lt. Colonel in the Air Force, and went on to lead a small college language department and then have a long retirement doing occasional work in advanced linguistics. He later decided to learn Italian, and succeeded, in his 70s. Every time in his life when he had either autonomy and resources to do his own thing, or external structure + social glue that agreed with him, he was able to excel. Without those conditions, he would drift badly and become depressed. Understanding this has helped me understanding myself. My dad was a poor parent in a lot of other ways, but his ability to succeed when he had enough pieces of the puzzle does give me hope.

I suspect this probably varies across the entire population to some degree, but for me it feels like my senses and my mind aren't fully "bound together" properly when I wake up, and it takes a while of being conscious, QUIETLY, for them to come together and be functioning right. This process takes far longer if I'm in a state of serious/chronic burnout, up to several hours.

If I skip it and jump directly into activity, things usually stabilize quicker, but in a crappy muddled way, and much of my day can be off, I feel dumber, forget things, lower threshold for confusion/distress from random events, etc.

I've been lurking/participating in forums for people on the spectrum long enough that I see "issues with being perceived" type posts pop up every so often. This is relieving to me because I have issues like that, and they are difficult for anyone who doesn't experience them to understand. So it's nice not to feel alone in that way.

I have noticed a definite pattern after months of reading every one of these posts I came across. I think there are two forms of "my desire not to be perceived is causing me distress / avoidance / ineffective behavior" and would like people's thoughts on this.

1. Some people fear being perceived, or have a great deal of what they very clearly understand as anxiety around being perceived. I have a little of this going on but it's by far the lesser portion of my issues being perceived.*

2. Other people seem to have much more trouble with the cognitive load of being perceived. This is the much bigger problem for me. Once another human being is in the same space, some part of me becomes continuously aware of their presence, and devotes a non-negligible amount of energy & mental bandwidth processing ... things ... related to that. It's often enough to make me less effective at what I'm trying to do. This can eventually lead to anxiety, but I'm fairly sure the primary emotion here is not anxiety but... avoidance? exhaustion? at the processing demand required to exist in the same space with others. It is also a much larger issue when I am already burnt out or tired. But the end result is the same as if the culprit were simply "anxiety:" I'll avoid doing things I need to do if the cost seems too much.

I think part of the "cognitive load" issue I just described is in fact directly related to my executive dysfunction. Human beings doing things nearby are one of the most distracting stimuli to me (I'm diagnosed ADHD as well). So if I'm trying to do a task, and somebody shows up nearby, even if they aren't interacting with me, it's quite possible for my ability to perform at the task to get noticeably worse once they are there.

As you can imagine, experiencing this enough times leads to emotions, which leads to a "complex" as they liked to call it in the 70s. In my case, I'm fully convinced there are both biological reasons for my bullshit - after all, I get mesmerized by televisions too, something is clearly going on - and conditioned responses that aren't helpful. Would be nice if I could keep a shrink long enough to get some CBT for the latter, but that's not how it works in the USA if you're poor.

Anyway I would love to hear any other thoughts or experiences having to do with Being Perceived as it applies to us!

...

* If you're the type of person who occasionally hurries to get around a corner before someone walking a ways behind you can round their corner and continue having you in sight, or if you're the type of person who will occasionally beat a hasty retreat when someone is arriving who has nothing to do with you, you probably understand this type of perception anxiety to some degree.

Please forgive me if this is not a proper space to discuss the long journey from starting point (no meditation) to desired goal (daily meditation 80% or more of days) for someone living in an individualist and undisciplined culture;

Like many others in such a situation I suspect, I go thru spells where I don't meditate. I'm still trying to understand why, in order that I can eventually stop doing so. Even right now I'm playing a game of some sort with myself by making this post, but that's actually beside the point.

I finally noticed one correlation: the spells line up (sometimes) with periods where I'm "angry at the world" in some sense ... feel bitter disappointment at dreams which didn't come to pass for some unjust or unaccepted reason, etc etc etc. This turns into sullen (or hot & fiery, depending) resistance, and then I don't meditate for a while until I get over it. But sometimes this takes months, and anyway, it's the exact opposite of what I need to be doing in such a situation. So ideally I could come to understand this and dispense with the whole pointless resistance part.

Anyway. Just posting to paint myself into a corner so that I have to stop skipping, but, I am curious if there is anyone else out there who has noticed this.

cross-posted from: https://discuss.tchncs.de/post/4450613

I encourage anyone who wants to see more traffic, and has the resources to do so, to create a throwaway account and confess some personal shit on here!! chances are if you do, somebody else out there will end up feeling less alone. that's exactly what I'm doing 😃

before realizing I'm on the spectrum I've been to some support groups for other conditions as well as going thru DBT, and one thing I realized is that sometimes it's cool to have a space to just put your stuff on the table, and everybody else has done so to some extent as well, and you can approach each other as human beings with less pretense because they already know your stuff unlike everyone in "real life" who you're trying to impress.

anyway. try it out! and then ghost the account in a few days/weeks/months, or don't.

but we all know adults on the spectrum have basically no resources. getting some traffic going here could turn this into one.

I encourage anyone who wants to see more traffic, and has the resources to do so, to create a throwaway account and confess some personal shit on here!! chances are if you do, somebody else out there will end up feeling less alone. that's exactly what I'm doing 😃

before realizing I'm on the spectrum I've been to some support groups for other conditions as well as going thru DBT, and one thing I realized is that sometimes it's cool to have a space to just put your stuff on the table, and everybody else has done so to some extent as well, and you can approach each other as human beings with less pretense because they already know your stuff unlike everyone in "real life" who you're trying to impress.

anyway. try it out! and then ghost the account in a few days/weeks/months, or don't.

but we all know adults on the spectrum have basically no resources. getting some traffic going here could turn this into one.

I think in my case this is a combination of 2 factors: having very self-absorbed parents (I would classify one as non-N and one as N) who really just didn't give a crap about my interests or inner life most of the time, plus one symptom of my being on the spectrum is that one very specific input wire is pulled and I have trouble 'just knowing' whether somebody likes/dislikes me assuming they have any talent at pretending to be friendly and want to hide any dislike. Like I think most people have a built-in that does that for them and mine is unplugged.

Also my parents were very intelligent, and unlike a lot of Ns or N-adjacents, they were nice enough to pretend to give a crap when they were being nice, and like .......... now I can't tell when other adults of sufficient intelligence are doing it these days? and I don't even have a warm/cold sense unless they give clues, and it takes a whole lot of effort to watch for them and doesn't come naturally?

Does this make sense? It sounds like an anxiety/shame complex under a very thin veil but I promise it's not, because I don't ... really react to things in that way?? I realized over the past 5 years or so that I really just cannot temperature check people's like/dislike toward me unless they are very clear about it, like if I start to have questions about somebody I have to sit down and think it out and it still doesn't compute, and since most of the people in my daily life are (good hearted) snarky types who have been thru a lot of trauma, everybody is nice but keeps their cards close to the vest and I can never have any good sense of where I stand. It's always a big question mark. "Just talk about it" doesn't work because these people don't do that, and I suppose neither have I ever outside of a romantic relationship. (edit: and my 3ish closest friendships)

I hate this but in some sense I'm not even trying to complain, this is just how it is, people make films about this culture, it's literally because civilization has only developed this far, I guess I'm just wondering how common it is to have this exact problem after being raised by Ns, orrrr if it's maybe more the autism. K THANKS BYE

Self-determination Theory (SDT) is… — a model, a macro theory, of human motivation.

Interesting article (granted with perhaps a bit of academic idealism) with a number of interesting links branching off.