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cross-posted from: https://lemmy.world/post/32265822

xkcd #3109: Dehumidifier

xkcd #3109: Dehumidifier

Title text:

It's important for devices to have internet connectivity so the manufacturer can patch remote exploits.

Transcript:

[A store salesman, Hairy, is showing Cueball a dehumidifier, with a "SALE" label on it. Several other unidentified devices, possibly other dehumidifier models, are shown in the store as well.]

Salesman: This dehumidifier model features built-in WiFi for remote updates.
Cueball: Great! That will be really useful if they discover a new kind of water.

Source: https://xkcd.com/3109/

explainxkcd for #3109

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[–] [email protected] 3 points 1 day ago

We have water, heavy water, hydrogen infused water, nitrogen infused water, ice-9, h2o2...what will they think of next?!

[–] [email protected] 5 points 1 day ago (5 children)

FYI I learned About VLANs that it is in no way „locked down“. I can spoof the MAC address of a known device from a specific VLAN and I’m in that VLAN. Yes your devices can’t reach the internet/other devices by default but it won’t stop a bad actor.

[–] [email protected] 6 points 1 day ago* (last edited 1 day ago) (1 children)

Depends on you hw. That seems rather poor implementation.. I believe my TP switch might handle that, because it rejects traffic to its management interface from mac X from vlan 20 because it sees the same mac in vlan 10.. (only vlan 20 is allowed for management)

[–] [email protected] 1 points 11 hours ago (1 children)

That’s a very cool feature actually but how does it stop a hacker if he has obtained a trusted MAC address from another device and connect to vlan 20 directly while the real device is offline?

[–] [email protected] 1 points 8 hours ago (1 children)

You configure vlans per physical port, so in a properly implemented system your attack won't be possible. When the packet comes to the switch the vlan tag is added to it according to the configuration for the port it was received from.

Or are you talking about mac-vlans?

[–] [email protected] 1 points 7 hours ago

Ok maybe I don’t fully understand yet. Let’s say an access point has 3 SSIDs, lan, guest and iot each client on each SSID gets a vlan tag accordingly. So it’s only connected to a single physical port, i think that’s what confused me. But SSIDs are interfaces just like an physical port afaik so your analogy still stands. The security here is the WiFi password anything that connects to LAN gets a LAN vlan tag. but it’s not like anything that connects to any of the SSIDs can get the DHCP lease of some random device on any vlan cuz it got tagged before. Or am I missing something?

[–] [email protected] 1 points 1 day ago* (last edited 1 day ago)

Well. The segmentation is to avoid security holes from Rogue third party devices. If you can access my pc vlan that only exists on my wired pcconnection, then you have indeed broken in to my domain. Letting the things that doesn't give a shit about security have their own network is just sanity/sanitary.

[–] [email protected] 1 points 1 day ago

Isn't that what 802.1x is for? If you really want to lock down your network, there are options.

[–] [email protected] 1 points 1 day ago

I'm aware you need a firewall (I used sonicwall professionally) vlans are for segmentation

[–] [email protected] 2 points 1 day ago

Yes, VLAN is an IT convenience feature, you don't need it just because it is a feature of the more expensive hardware.

Instead just establish separate L2s and operate proper L3 firewalls between them. For IoT devices, any kind of reliable potato will do just fine.

[–] [email protected] 48 points 2 days ago (1 children)

Internet of things sucks, but lan of things is pretty cool

[–] [email protected] 15 points 2 days ago (1 children)

you must have lots of LoTs

[–] [email protected] 7 points 2 days ago

Lord of the Trackers!

[–] [email protected] 9 points 1 day ago (1 children)

New kinds of water, you say? The marketing department is already on it and boy have I got news for you!

[–] [email protected] 3 points 1 day ago* (last edited 1 day ago) (1 children)

Wait... Is that heavy water?? /s

[–] [email protected] 4 points 1 day ago (1 children)

How about I hook you up with a brand new water softener on a 30 year lease but no payments in the first 5 years so it’ll be the next owner’s problem

[–] [email protected] 5 points 1 day ago

Omfg it's like solar panel companies...

So many damn houses with solar leases more expensive than just electricity

[–] [email protected] 12 points 1 day ago (1 children)

Yeah, companies have abused that to release buggy, incomplete products faster and only make the software stable and feature complete if they make a good profit.

[–] [email protected] 10 points 1 day ago (1 children)

Or add new bloat features / brick devices after updating TOS...

[–] [email protected] 8 points 1 day ago (1 children)

Remote device bricking is cheaper than researching part wear for planned obsolescence.

[–] [email protected] 5 points 1 day ago (1 children)

And both make me go with a different company next time so idk what they think they're gaining.

[–] [email protected] 3 points 22 hours ago

They gained a cost reduction for a single quarter of a single year. No further thought was put into it.

[–] [email protected] 16 points 2 days ago (7 children)

I was an idiot and bought a high end TPLink router, I can't even use Vlans without signing up for their back door service.

[–] [email protected] 11 points 1 day ago

maybe install openwrt/ddwrt?

[–] [email protected] 6 points 2 days ago (1 children)

Yeah. Even my old solid netgear got a firmware update that's begging me to get the app now. Shobe that shit up your ass.

At least give me a checkbox to stop bothering me

[–] [email protected] 4 points 23 hours ago (1 children)
[–] [email protected] 1 points 20 hours ago

Yeah that's on my todo list. I've got 3 decent but old routers.

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[–] [email protected] 72 points 2 days ago (2 children)

I have a rule that "Nothing will be automated that cannot be manually overridden."

Well, actually it's my wife's rule but it's a good rule nonetheless. As a result, there's a big panel full of relays in the basement that is the "last mile" for anything climate control or security related.

There have been a few times when it's been handy. Like when the exhaust fan isn't working and I don't want to debug the ESP32 controller today so I just flip it over to "Manual".

[–] [email protected] 16 points 2 days ago

That's a great rule of thumb. So setup two switches. One for manual and one with a ESP32.

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[–] [email protected] 22 points 2 days ago (1 children)

And it probably needs to connect using WEP

[–] [email protected] 15 points 2 days ago (2 children)

wpa2, but password limited to 10 characters. letters and numbers only, trying anything else crashes it, and you have to figure this out yourself

[–] [email protected] 13 points 2 days ago (1 children)

Nah, it will just broadcast a 2.4Ghz noise for no reason

[–] [email protected] 5 points 2 days ago

I feel like it's missing that nifty FCC sticker...

[–] swampdownloader 9 points 2 days ago (1 children)

And you must enter password through a 2 character wide menu screen with only up and down arrows

[–] [email protected] 3 points 1 day ago (1 children)

The up arrow moves through the letters, e.g., A->B->C. The down arrow moves to the next character in the sequence, e.g., C->CA->CAA. If you click past the correct letter, you’ll have to click all the way through again. And if you submit the wrong letter, you have to start all over (after it takes twenty seconds attempting to connect with the wrong password and then alerts you that it didn’t work, of course).

[–] [email protected] 3 points 1 day ago* (last edited 1 day ago)

And when you press down, the current letter's value briefly increments to the next letter before being replaced by an asterisk. Z causes the router to crash.

[–] [email protected] 19 points 2 days ago (3 children)

I just shopped for a humidifier, purposely avoided anything "smart", I ended up with a really fucking simple one, it has a hydrostat and can aim to automatically reach a level you want (40-50-60), has 4 speed,1,2,3,auto and sleep.

And the whole thing is nothing else just a wicking filter sitting in water that has a fan pointed at it, I think Technology Connectios would be proud of my purchase.

I will have to disinfect and change filters, but no need for distilled water like with ultrasonic humidifiers, and I boil my water and let it cool back to room temperature before adding it to the humidifier, hopefully that will help with staving off build up of bacteria

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[–] [email protected] 7 points 2 days ago (1 children)

My house has manual windows, manual locks, and a dumb garage door controller... because I work in IT.

I do have a few smart appliances (environment reporting) but they are only allowed on the banishment VLAN so they don't get to interact with any single appliance inside my network. All they see is internet and nothing else.

[–] [email protected] 6 points 1 day ago

The S in IoT stands for security

[–] [email protected] 20 points 2 days ago

It got hacked and now I'm really, really dry.

[–] ragebutt 12 points 2 days ago* (last edited 1 day ago) (5 children)

This has been my approach and it has gone okay so far except for 2 issues that are quite a pain:

1: you have to thoroughly research what you buy. Does it work on an isolated vlan? Just because it works with home assistant does not guarantee this. Many home assistant users are comfortable with some degree of data collection and an integration does not mean that it will work local only (nor does it mean that all features will work). If it does work local only you may sacrifice some features. Cameras are a good example. Most cameras with object/person detection do this in hardware, but not all. If you circumvent the Internet connection and proprietary app you may sacrifice this, or more likely alerts

2: there is 0 regulation binding a vendor to the terms of service agreed to at the point of sale, including making significant and sweeping changes. Case in point: I got a chamberlain myQ garage door opener. It worked well and opened my garage door. Integrated with home assistant via the API. However, chamberlain serves a lot of ads for upsells and services via their shitty app. They decided that users circumventing the app and not seeing that you could give amazon drivers access to your garage to deliver packages (seriously) or buy shitty cameras was unacceptable so they updated the TOS and revoked API access for all users. The only way it works now is via their app. I sold mine and built a ratgdo

Another example is Philips hue: while they have been able to be used local only for over a decade Philips has decided they’re going to start a subscription security service with all the devices that entails based around the hue hub. At some point in the near future if your hub updates it will require you to sign in to a Philips account and be online. This one’s way worse as some people have thousands of dollars invested in hue. I have like $300 in the fancier white hue bulbs but some people on the HA forums and reddit literally have their house decked out with like 80-100 bulbs, many of which are the RGB. Kind of silly but they do work very well, flicker free, good color, and last ages. I still have some from like 2016 going strong. Luckily here if you have the bridge on an isolated vlan it won’t update and worst case the bulbs work with ~~zwave~~ zigbee but the principle of the thing is ridiculous. It should be illegal for a company to change the terms this far after the contract of sale

Other examples too. Many car manufacturers (Mazda, Chevrolet, ford) because api access limited data collection for them to sell, some companies are openly hostile to home assistant and when an integration is created they will go out of their way to break it (Ariston, bambu), etc. see https://github.com/unixorn/internet-of-trash

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[–] [email protected] 25 points 2 days ago* (last edited 2 days ago) (20 children)

I just bought my first home and as soon as I'm decently unpacked I'm going to start my journey on self hosting.

Currently planning:

  • Small i5 HP Pro SFF PC for hosting large apps (going to config for Linux and power it off until I get more mature
  • Raspberry Pi4: pihole and home assistant
  • Raspberry Pi4: NextCloud, Deck
  • ZigBee router thing:
  • NAS
  • Jellyfin
  • JBOD on SFF?
  • flashing old Netgear nighthawk into wwdrt
  • OS Ticket to replace NextCloud Deck for a JIRA type solution to manage projects and major house items.
  • ZigBee thermometers for better Nest accuracy
  • ZigBee motion sensors for entry ways and bathroom
  • smart plugs and motion sensors for basement TV lights

Not sure what else to add. Open to advice or suggestions.

[–] [email protected] 25 points 2 days ago (4 children)

I've watched enough Lock Picking Lawyer never to want a consumer 'smart lock.' Half of them can be opened with a magnet. Maybe commercial grade is better, but I've been locked out of my job after every power failure for the last 10 years, until someone comes along with a physical key.

Re homeassistant on a Pi: homeassistant does a lot of database transactions, so you may want to have db storage on something other than an SD card.

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[–] [email protected] 15 points 2 days ago (2 children)

Smart, you don't want some hacker to drown you remotely.

[–] [email protected] 5 points 2 days ago

Really you don't want hackers using your random Internet appliance as a point of attack to access your whole network.

More IoT devices means a greater attack surface. And it's an appliance you don't actually want to spend time thinking about. You don't want to waste time troubleshooting network issues with your dehumidifier... It just needs to work, or you use a different one.

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[–] [email protected] 3 points 1 day ago

i love it when my vacum makes a remote connction to a other countrye goverment that way i get tracked by mine and theres whatba time we live in

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