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The real question is why the hell did democrats buy into this obsession with deporting people who live and work in our communities and not question the alarming ideology at the heart of the growing fear democrat politicians dutifully did their job to stoke alongside their more passionate Republican colleagues and friends?
No, still more concerned about the existential crisis in front of us. We can worry about the immigration thing later. Hell, im all for people being here. Immigrants tend to make communities better, not worse.
We can worry about the immigration thing later.
That's like thinking "I need to do something about the guy trying to murder me, I'll worry about the knife he's holding later". You cannot beat fascism with almost fascism; the real thing will always win that fight.
Well said, neoliberals and centrists better get this through their head before this isn't anything left to fight for.
Are you suggesting im a neoliberal? Bcz im not. Everybody on lemmy isn't a centrist or neoliberal when you dislike something they said.
I do have to agree with the other guy; ideas like "but muh coalition!!!" and "we gotta ally with the proto-fascists don't be so divisive!!!" have a fair amount of support on the left too, but they're neoliberal talking points through and through. You usually hear it from the DNC as "we can't alienate the moderates," but fundamentally it's the same idea.
Maybe in this context you are acting like one?
Okay dude, you can assume whatever you want.
No, its really not. We need to beat fascism before we worry about what the democrats were doing 8 years ago..
To beat fascism, you need to understand it. To understand fascism, you need to understand how the democrats are not only controlled opposition, but they are complicit.
Tom Homan, Trump's Border Czar, was originally an Obama pick.
In 2015, Obama awarded him a Presidential Rank Award as a Distinguished Executive. The Washington Post article at the time stated, "Thomas Homan deports people. And he's really good at it."
Every single democratic senator just voted to confirm Marco Rubio, and he answered by doing fascism in short order.
You can't get snippy with people rightly calling you out for spewing liberalism as you attempt to refocus attention away from the democrats who enabled this devolution into fascism. The liberal fixation with defending democrats as they usher in fascism is bizarre.
The liberal fixation with defending democrats as they usher in fascism is bizarre.
on the contrary I think it unfortunately makes perfect sense, I don't doubt that most neoliberals and centrists are genuine in many ways in their desire for a better world, as we all are!... but because of that imagine if you suddenly were being forced to come to terms with the fact that your ideology that you have made some kind of intellectual, material, philosophical, social or whatever sacrifice for wasn't helping make the world better... no... imagine that realization dawning on you like a jet black bird of prey... maybe all the corrections you made to the otherwise natural courses of things around you were actually contributing to this dark tide filling the empty spaces around you... and were did all the laughter go?....?
What would you do in that moment? You would probably instinctively run, that is what my kneejerk reaction would do. The responses you are seeing that are confusing in their bizarre fervousness need to unknow only look confusing because running away from the truth looks a peculiar way in conversations that are supposed to be two way streets.
Screw what the Democrats were doing 8 years ago; the problem is what they're doing now and will keep doing. And do you know what they're doing now? Glorifying "law and order," attacking Palestinian solidarity, suppressing leftwing dissent and a whole lot of deliberate nothing. You can't defeat fascism without an alternate vision for the future, and the Democrats neither have one nor will accept you providing one. You can't ally with these people and expect to get things done, but I digress. More importantly, how do you expect to beat fascism without addressing the fascist talking point? When fascists point at you and say "see, they want to keep the RAPISTS and CRIMINALS in our great country," what will you say? "Lalala I can't hear you"?
Democrats want to win elections, and voting population of America is an mass very cruel, majority of americans want to bring suffering to other people, and wouldn't consider a candidate that doesn't promise at least some violence.
Not with that attitude they won't
Did you read the first sentence and immediately commented without reading the rest?
Why do libs always settle on Republican framing? It's embarrassing.
I think you’re simply missing the entire point. It isn’t talking about how great deportation was under democrats, it’s saying that deportation is just the cover for Trump pushing soldiers into states that generally disagree with him.
Because (economic) liberalism is a right-wing ideology. What'd you expect?
Because that's what majority of voting americans respond to.
Exactly. I think celebrating any deportation is a bad look because the left should be against borders and authoritiarian violence no matter what form it takes.
No one is celebrating deportation, they’re very clearly pointing out that Trump doesn’t need to illegally use the army to back up ICE’s insane no-trial raids and deportations.
See, I get what you are saying here but you’re also doing the thing.
This post could read that ICE’s insane raids and deportations could simply be done without the assistance of the military.
Both your post and the OD post should clearly express that Trump DOESNT NEED ICE RAIDS IN THE FIRST PLACE, he’s just using fear of immigrants as a takeover. Like fucking Hitler did.
Your complete lack of media literacy is not in any way a scathing review of my interpretation, bud. Read the title and put some context clues together, genius.
How Many Migrants Are Crossing the Border
As part of the current fiscal year that began in October, there were 309,114 migrant encounters that month, 308,669 in November and 371,036 in December. In December, about 300,000 migrants—nearly 10,000 per day—came into the U.S. through Mexico, including about 250,000 between ports of entry, according to Customs and Border Protection (CBP) data. Federal border agents encountered about 2.5 million migrants in total last year, surpassing the previous record high from the year before.
Immigrant: Hello I’d like to enter the country with no visa, passport, or other documentation.
Border guard: I’m sorry you can’t do that, you’ll have to go back.
Headline: Obama deported 3.1 Million immigrants!
Lemmy: How terrible Democrats sent ICE gestapo to round up 3 million hard working taxpayers from their homes and workplace!
Snopes rates the claim "US deported more than 3M people during Obama presidency. Most did not have chance to plead case in court" as mostly true. I truly do not understand how your characterization of these deportations follows from the link you posted and your quote from it.
Well let's break it down then, per your link. The number they deem "mostly true" comes from a couple of sources, one of which is MIgration Policy Institute.
One of MPI's principal findings is that the deportation system has dramatically changed over the past 19 years – moving from a judicial system prior to 1996, where the vast majority of people facing deportation had immigration court hearings, to a system today of nonjudicial removals, where 75 percent of people removed do not see a judge before being expelled from the U.S.
So let's look at that ". . . moving from a judicial system prior to 1996" - what happened in 1996?
Well according to this,
The 1996 Illegal Immigration Reform and Immigrant Responsibility Act (IIRIRA) was a momentous law that recast undocumented immigration as a crime and fused immigration enforcement with crime control (García Hernández 2016; Lind 2016). Among its most controversial provisions, the law expanded the crimes, broadly defined, for which immigrants could be deported and legal permanent residency status revoked. The law instituted fast-track deportations and mandatory detention for immigrants with convictions. It restricted access to relief from deportation.
Now I'm pretty sure you can grok it from here but for the sake of wrapping it up:
The document noted that nonjudicial removals included "expedited removals," "reinstatements of removal" and "stipulated removals," clarifying that stipulated removal orders "are signed by an immigration judge, but typically do not involve a removal hearing." . . . This figure originated from the DHS's 2013 Annual Report "Immigration Enforcement Actions" (Page 1), which shows that 44% of removals that year were expedited removals, while 39% were reinstatements of prior removal orders — together accounting for roughly 83% of total removals during that fiscal year (Oct. 1, 2012 to Sept. 30, 2013).
And finally
As outlined in DHS documents, "expedited removal" refers to the removal of a noncitizen "who is inadmissible because the individual does not possess valid entry documents or is inadmissible for fraud or misrepresentation of material fact." Under this process, individuals may be removed without a hearing before an immigration court.
So
I truly do not understand how your characterization of these deportations follows
It follows thusly: People who appear at the border without paperwork (visa, immigration status, asylum status, other) are not subject to trial, they can be turned away. Additionally, people without paperwork who have already been told to leave but have not can be removed without trial. This is not based on Obama's policy. This is based on a law from 1996, which as you well know is before Obama or Biden became President.
These bureaucratic legal walls to immigration are not particularly fair much less ideal, but they are a reality of a national border. In particular, that border policy from 1996 changed the way it had been handled for decades up to that point and created the system Obama inherited which he abided by. He did not carry out raids the likes of which we've seen in the past six months and he did not sanction them, which is what the comments about the meme are suggesting.
My point, then, is that there can be "3.1 million 'deported'" based on a very loose definition of a practical daily event at the border, or related border findings, and it does not mean the insanity and chaos of ICE and associated Constitutional quagmires as created by this idiotic administration, where they're removing people who have visas, who have residency status, who did not commit fraud, etc. etc.
But people don't want to look at nuance in any way shape or form, and the so-called-left would rather take that loosely-worded mostly-true fact and demonize the Democrats so that they can pat themselves on the head for being ultra-left-überprogressives who don't need to vote. I disagree with it.
He did not carry out raids the likes of which we’ve seen in the past six months and he did not sanction them, which is what the comments about the meme are suggesting.
Obama absolutely did carry out and sanction deportation raids. To be clear, I'm not claiming he was as aggressive as Trump is being now. The image itself is an attempt to point out that Obama did so in a more orderly fashion.
My point, then, is that there can be “3.1 million ‘deported’” based on a very loose definition of a practical daily event at the border
Again, your characterization of these deportations all being people showing up at the border without papers is unsubstantiated. Nothing about expedited removal requires a person be present at the border. I could be mistaken about this, but a "removal" implies that a person is not at a border crossing. Indeed, in the MPI report, the tables listing deportation numbers have separate columns for border apprehensions and removals, and the removal column for Obama is at around 3M.
A few points: Obama had fewer border apprehensions and removals than both Bush and Clinton. This could be the case for any number of reasons, one of which could be lighter enforcement. But it is the case that the Obama administration bragged about its hawkishness on the border. My understanding is he did so in a failed attempt to appease the GOP and get DACA put into legislation. But regardless of all of this, it seems ICE under Obama did remove around 3 million people, not at the border.
Again, your characterization of these deportations all being people showing up at the border without papers is unsubstantiated.
So from the link I posted at the top of this chain, it says:
As part of the current fiscal year that began in October, there were 309,114 migrant encounters that month, 308,669 in November and 371,036 in December. In December, about 300,000 migrants—nearly 10,000 per day—came into the U.S. through Mexico, including about 250,000 between ports of entry, according to Customs and Border Protection (CBP) data. Federal border agents encountered about 2.5 million migrants in total last year, surpassing the previous record high from the year before.
That’s Oct and Nov 2023. But for the sake of discussion, let’s say it was similar enough during Obama’s terms.
300k/mo. * 10mo = 3,000,000 people. We agree there?
If so, that’s substantiated claim that 3,600,000 people came through the border in a year. Not all were refused entry, of course, but the numbers are there.
Comprehensive figures are available through October. So to keep things as simple as possible, we’ll present numbers for February 2021, the month after Biden took office, through October, unless otherwise noted.
The DHS data show 6.5 million encounters at the U.S.-Mexico border in that time frame, a figure that includes both the 5.8 million apprehensions between legal ports of entry – the number typically used for illegal immigration – and a little more than 700,000 migrants who arrived at ports of entry without authorization to enter the U.S.
Of those 6.5 million encounters by CBP, 2.5 million people have been released into the U.S. with notices to appear in immigration court or report to Immigration and Customs Enforcement in the future, or other classifications, such as parole.
There are certainly others who have crossed the border by evading the authorities. DHS estimated there were 660,000 “gotaways,” or unlawful entries, in fiscal 2021. The agency would not provide an updated estimate. However, a DHS spokesperson told us: “Under this Administration, the estimated annual apprehension rate has averaged 78%, identical to the rate of the prior Administration.” That rate would support a gotaway figure of 1.6 million from February 2021 through October.
So I think it’s very reasonable to infer the “millions” that were “deported” by Obama and Biden were largely done so at border entry points. Millions were apparently allowed entry with notices to appear at court. None of which are the implied gestapo tactics and zero of which was the rhetoric of this horrible ‘administration’.
And that’s what I object to. It’s easy and stupid to pretend trump is carrying on what Obama and Biden have done w/r/t immigration. And it all feeds into this mentality that Democrats are just as bad, and that’s Bullshit.
Not that I have a horse in this fight, but how many migrants don't pass these border guards and live in houses completely undocumented and unbeknownst to the US government? It's difficult to get stats on things you don't know.
In any event, nobody is illegal and there is no world where any kind of violence or threatening of livelihood is warranted.
To the point of the meme, they wouldn’t be counted since they’re not known, but yeah.
Near as I can figure is that the post is meant to frame Democrats as people that only deport people 'legally' and that they don't need to use force and still get a big chunk of the job done.
Just make a list of all known illegal immigrants and then circle the ones who arent on the list.
That's not the flex you think it is
Yeah it really isn't, it's funny that this came from a leftist page too, comparing deportation numbers and favouring democrats because they deport better (lol)
No, but it puts this into perspective that clearly the plan here is to usurp power and consolidate it into the executive branch. If that wasn't already clear to people. Me personally, I dont think immigration is a problem like at all. But not everybody feels the way I do. So I'd prefer we focus on the existential threat rather than point and laugh at the democrats for doing what people wanted them to do.
That's true, but once this shit is over with I do not want the same old democrat party to continue, they perpetuate jingoist ideology and ignore leftist voices
The fuck makes you think this is a flex?
This is embarassing why would you post your Ls
Immediate deportations probably should not count on this number. That is where they are caught crossing or right after crossing and then sent back.
well it also proves that Dems are also evil
Yes, and yes people should push for them to be better... But there's far too much "bOtH sIdEs" that happens and then we get literal fascists in power.
They are, it is funny that they use their own evil as an argument to support them
Illegal immigration is a thing, and countries have a right to protect their borders. It doesn't, however, cause all of society's ills like the fascists are claiming, and the main difference is that Democrats followed due process.
Source(s)? I tend to first disbelieve what text an anonymous internet rando decided to put over a foreboding picture.
No sources on me, but if you find sources disproving me feel free to share and I'll either edit or delete my post
"Might be propaganda ... I'll post it anyway."
I don't believe it's propaganda and I'm not obligated to prove my views to you
Clearly, Trump is unfairly criticized for the deportation if he needs to call the marines just to do the same things democrats always do. He's the real victim here.