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On the boundaries of personal freedom: what if my exercise of freedom bothers someone? (lemy.lol)
submitted 2 weeks ago* (last edited 2 weeks ago) by [email protected] to c/[email protected]
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When speaking about personal freedom and it's boundaries, I take the position of: every person must have all the freedom to do whatever they would like, until it starts to harm others or limit their freedoms.

I believe this to also be the most common position by proponents of freedom.

So this means I cannot say I have the freedom to beat someone, for example, as that is harming them and limiting their own freedoms.

Now this is an obvious example, but there are a lot of murky ones. For example:

  • Do I have the freedom to use some power tools in my house if it bothers my neighbor?
  • Do I have the freedom to smoke in the city if it bothers people?
  • Do I have the freedom to just walk completely naked in a busy city? What if I am very unpleasant to look at? What if many people do like I do and it just makes the city less pleasant to walk through?
  • Do I have the freedom to be entirely naked and stand on a public sidewalk but just next to a storefront? Maybe the owner doesn't care, except I drive away their customers because they care
  • Do I have the freedom to plant a tree in my yard that suddenly takes away sunlight from neighbor? Technically it's my house!

"the freedom to walk in my neighborhood without having to hear power tools" and "the freedom to use power tools" seem to be in opposition.

I think many people will have straight answers for these. I'm not looking for answers. I'm looking for a reasonable general guideline. When are situations like these considered to be within my rights to personal freedom, and when are they outside of personal freedom or infringing on freedoms of others?

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[–] [email protected] 8 points 2 weeks ago* (last edited 2 weeks ago) (1 children)

Shifting the word from "freedom" to "rights" makes more sense in the context you are explaining. (There isn't that much of a difference, but "freedom" implies a choice without restriction where as a "right" may have implied boundaries.)

Every situation you described can be boiled down to a single question: Do my actions impact or otherwise restrict the rights of others? (That is the guideline, btw.)

Rights are contextual and may have different legal definitions depending on where you live or where you are.

Most importantly, unless you are imprisoned or physically restrained, you have the freedom to do whatever the fuck you want. However, that doesn't mean your actions are within your rights and those actions could have serious consequences.

[–] [email protected] 1 points 2 weeks ago (2 children)

But some of these "rights" do contradict each other.

For example, it may be reasonable to say "I want the freedom to walk through my city downtown without having to smell strong weed", but at the same time it is just as reasonable to say "I want the freedom to smoke weed in my city downtown". Those two rights conflict. They limit each other. You can't have both without restrictions. Which one would you have?

Smoking weed is just an example. You can replace it with "dressing provocatively" or even "dressing entirely naked" or it could be "playing loud unpleasant music in a popular street".

Each of those "restrict the right of others" but so does the reverse. Which right or freedom are we picking?

[–] [email protected] 2 points 2 weeks ago* (last edited 2 weeks ago)

That is not really a contradiction and again, let's put rights and freedoms in grammatical context using this example: "Freedom of speech is a right." Think about that for a second if you need.

I live in Colorado which is subjectively the weed capitol of the US. Even so, it is illegal to smoke in public places unless it's a designated event which is usually on private property.

Weed is an intoxicating drug. As such, it's customary to restrict the consumption of intoxicants in public. (Hence, it's a law. There is more to this, but out of scope of this conversation.) In theory, the consumption of weed is reduced downtown because people don't want to get a fine or a ticket.

It's a personal freedom to light up wherever the hell you want. If I say, out loud, that I am going to go downtown and smoke a fatty, nobody can throw me in jail for that or tie me up because I said something. If I actually do go downtown and light up, that is not within my legal rights and that action may have consequences.

It's my right, as defined by law, not to smell it in a zone that is designated as weed-free, and notify the police. The police, should protect my rights in that case. (In theory.)

Your freedom to smoke-up was not restricted and my legal rights are enforced by the police.

In the interest of this conversation, I am using "context" is very broady. It may include: Local and state laws, criminal history, reputational history, being on public or private property, current behavior, state of intoxication, and literally the thousands of other in things that lead-up to or describe a scenario.

Legal freedoms and legal rights have limits and those limits are contextual. If I disagree with any legal right OR legal restriction, I can get an attorney and attempt to change a law and petition my government. Those are also my rights.

What is absolutely important is understanding how your rights and freedoms are defined by law. Arbitrarily saying things like, "I have the right to smoke where I want" doesn't cut it.

Again, the only freedoms and rights you have must be defined by law. Those freedoms and rights are not limitless BUT are subject to legal interpretation in their appropriate context AND you have the legal means to adjust that interpretation.

Edit: I am using words here with purpose, so try not to skip over bits. It is extremely challenging to discuss complex topics on social media and I am attempting to be as neutral and unbiased as possible. Separating "rights and freedoms" from "legal rights and freedoms", with all nuances attached, is always a rough topic, btw.

Edit2: Changed typo: "non limitless" to "not limitless".

[–] [email protected] 1 points 2 weeks ago* (last edited 2 weeks ago) (1 children)

Which right or freedom are we picking?

Both, because nuance exists. You can have a law that says 'No smoking weed in public, except in parks or other outdoor areas where the smell is less likely to bother others.' Where rights and freedoms intersect it makes sense to limit both in ways that are reasonable in the context of their impact on the rights of others.

[–] [email protected] 1 points 2 weeks ago (1 children)

This seems reasonable, but then at what point do we say "no" to making dedicated spaces because someone thought their rights are being infringed?

Separate spaces for smoking are common. What about dedicated spaces where street music performers can perform and others where they can't?

What if someone doesn't want to see tattoos? At what point do you say "your annoyance is unreasonable"? I mean surely this one is, but is there a guideline that separates this from playing loud music?

A extreme case would be someone who wishes to make a space free of a certain race. Obviously this is ridiculous and bad, but I am seeking a guideline that can separate these unreasonable ones from the reasonable ones.

[–] [email protected] 1 points 2 weeks ago

If you want to line to be somewhere other than where it is right now I think the onus is on you to show that where it is now is causing harm. You aren't harmed by seeing tattoos despite not wanting to, you can't reasonably expect everyone else to cover them up just because they offend you. If they trigger trauma or something individuals may be swayed by sympathy to hide theirs around you out of respect, but that's a choice they make, not a thing you can legislate upon them. Like if you're bad enough off that outlawing the public display of tattoos seems like a reasonable solution then what you have is a 'you problem', not an 'everyone else' problem, and you need to figure out how to get past that so that you can function in the world because it's unreasonable to expect the world to change around you to suit you.

There is no hard and fast guideline other than the general sense of what's reasonable that people develop by interacting. As I said in another comment under this post it's all contingent and case-by-case. Does the harm caused by X outweigh the harm caused by the harm/trouble/inconvenience/etc caused by the negation of X? If so the line probably needs to move.

[–] [email protected] 1 points 2 weeks ago

It depends on where exactly you draw the line between 'bother' and 'harm'. Most people don't need a hard line though, a little common sense and courtesy/consideration toward others often does the trick. For example, I can use them to answer your questions:

Do I have the freedom to use some power tools in my house if it bothers my neighbor?

That depends on whether 'bother' means 'slightly irritate' or 'keep awake when they have to be up for work'. One of those things is harm and the other isn't.

Do I have the freedom to smoke in the city if it bothers people?

Second-hand smoke causes measurable harm to others. It's not even ambiguous. But again it depends on how you define 'in the city'; do you mean 'on my front porch in the suburbs' or 'in the middle of a crowd of 30 people waiting to cross the street'?

Do I have the freedom to just walk completely naked in a busy city?

Do others have the freedom to not see you naked? Seems like the freedom to not see you naked causes fewer harms than the freedom to be naked in public.

Do I have the freedom to be entirely naked and stand on a public sidewalk but just next to a storefront?

What is your fixation with being naked? Nobody can make you get dressed in your own home, but you should probably put your clothes on when you leave the house.

Do I have the freedom to plant a tree in my yard that suddenly takes away sunlight from neighbor?

Do they have the freedom to trim it when it becomes a problem?

The best general guideline I've found is two-fold: don't be stupid, don't be a dick. If you're not sure whether or not you're clear of those two tripwires you're probably too close to them and should take a couple steps back just to be safe.

[–] [email protected] 1 points 2 weeks ago (1 children)

Freedom is always within the confines of the community. The only way to have total freedom is to live as a hermit far away from civilization.

[–] [email protected] 2 points 2 weeks ago

There goes freedom of association then.

[–] [email protected] 0 points 2 weeks ago

My rights end where yours begin.