this post was submitted on 21 Oct 2023

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By law, Sask. youth under 16 now need parental consent before changing pronouns at school (regina.ctvnews.ca)

submitted 2 years ago by [email protected] to c/[email protected]

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Saskatchewan has passed a bill requiring parental consent if a youth under the age of 16 wants to be referred by a different pronoun or name at school.

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[–] [email protected] 8 points 2 years ago (1 children)

No nine year old should be concerned about sex, that's not support, that's abuse.

Ideology vs reality. I will tentatively agree that no nine year old should be concerned about sex, but that's not the world we live in and never will be. Some kids that age are entering puberty, so obviously have some stuff to learn. Sadly, some that age and even younger are sexually exploited, so need relevant education for both prevention and reporting. And, back on topic, kids that age are forming their identities, including sexual and gender identities, whether we like it or not.

Closing our eyes and minds to the real world does not make it go away.

Desiring a different world does not magically create it. If you want to work toward that different world, go ahead, but you don't get to act as though that brave new world already exists.

[+] [email protected] -8 points 2 years ago* (last edited 2 years ago) (1 children)

Sure, let's discuss reality for a bit. Why do you expect schools to be involved in this without the parents knowledge? If the parent calls and asks to talk to Jill, but the child has made it known they'd rather be called Jack, is the teacher supposed to lie to the parent? Are they supposed to prepare 2 report cards, one for the student and one to show their parents? Do they produce multiple sets of class photos and yearbooks?

Where does it fit in your reality where the school is responsible for keeping a child's choices from their parents?

Compared to the silly laws being passed in certain US states, there's nothing wrong with this one, other than people feel any law targeting LGBT youth must be evil.

[–] [email protected] 2 points 2 years ago (2 children)

Okay, now we're getting somewhere, an opportunity for us to move beyond default principles to more considered opinions.

I hadn't considered those things. I'd like to say that it's because I didn't see their relevance, but it's probably more accurate to say that I simply never thought things through. So, with your permission, I'll do that now.

If the parent calls and asks to talk to Jill, but the child has made it known they'd rather be called Jack, is the teacher supposed to lie to the parent?

Humans are very good at mapping, especially names. I call for Jack, whoever picks up the phone pages Jill, no more lying required than if I call for Theodore and they page Ted.

Are they supposed to prepare 2 report cards, one for the student and one to show their parents? Do they produce multiple sets of class photos and yearbooks?

I guess I don't see how these are any different than any other official communications. Until there has been an official amendment, which would require parental involvement, official communications use official names. That doesn't sound much different from how I communicate with the CRA. I have a name I prefer in casual conversation, but have to use my birth name with them until I make an official change.

Where does it fit in your reality where the school is responsible for keeping a child's choices from their parents?

I don't think that the school is any more responsible to keep a child's chosen name from the parents than it is my responsibility. If a child asks me to call them Ted even though they were introduced to me as Edward, I'll call them Ted. No big deal. Likewise for Jack vs Jill. It is literally of no consequence to me. I'll happily call them by their preferred name to their face and simply not get involved in the parent-child relationship. I don't see why the school should be held to a different standard.

Compared to the silly laws being passed in certain US states, there's nothing wrong with this one, other than people feel any law targeting LGBT youth must be evil.

I agree with you about the silly laws being passed elsewhere and don't think this falls to that level. I'm still not sure why it's seen as necessary, though. I don't think that any law related to LGBT youth Is evil, because some are designed to protect them.

I'm sure there is still plenty of nuance to be uncovered and I hope that we can do that work without just holding a default position because it's our default.

[–] [email protected] 2 points 2 years ago (1 children)

I'll jump in the debate since you have good arguments I think.

From my perspective, and I'll speak with my feelings here as a parent, if my child wanted to change sex, I would absolutely want to be involved. Even if he/she does not want to. Transgender is a thing but it's probably less than 2-3% of the population? The chances my child is trans is pretty low. Maybe he is having a phase of some sort ? Did he think about the consequences of this choice ? Did he talk to professional? Why don't he wanna talk about it ? Is he absolutely sure ?

I mean, I want what is best for my child. Changing sex is a pretty big deal, it's not a normal thing that just happens. There could be something wrong and I don't mean that being trans is being wrong but teenagers with mental health issues is common and thinking you are trans while you're not could be a thing. Maybe I'm being paranoid, maybe we should just let it go and if he really is not trans, he's gonna eventually find out on his own. I don't know.

If my child wants to transition or change his name, I wanna know. I really don't get the abusing parent thing like, are all parent want to abuse their kid because they are trans ? If that's the case, it would probably be a good idea for the kid to see social services or something.

The problem with the trans thing, is that it's a pretty big decision that has big consequences on your body and your place in the world. It's scary tomleave that decision 100% into the hands of a kid that may have not think about it correctly and that just see the bright side of it.

[–] [email protected] 1 points 2 years ago (1 children)

Never be concerned with jumping in. I assume that the reason we do this in public is to get as much diversity of opinion as possible. If anyone wants to keep discussions private, this is the wrong place. :)

You have expressed my own feelings and opinions better than I have. The only thing you've missed is that, as much as I want my child to feel free and safe in discussing literally anything with me, what I want more is that they have access to trained professionals for the tough and important stuff (for everything, not just this; that's why they take swimming, driving, and math lessons from accredited experts, not me).

The only reason I attach importance to the difference between starting with me vs someone else is that I would feel that I've somehow failed if they started the process of finding professional assistance with someone other than me. That, of course, is a me thing, not a them thing or a system thing.

The objective, in my view, is to make sure that my child has all the expert help, support, and advice they need for themselves and that I require to ensure I'm not an obstacle to their growth and that we both require in order to maintain a healthy relationship. If, in the end, that means starting off by keeping secrets from me, so be it.

And then, as seems to be natural for people, I layer that thinking onto a system with the assumption that everyone should think that way...

[–] [email protected] 2 points 2 years ago (1 children)

That make sense and that's how I feel too. I think the fear is that the school won't take the professional step and just keep the status quo, without the parent knowing that something important is going on. I'm pretty sure that is the issue at hand when I come to think of it.

[–] [email protected] 1 points 2 years ago (1 children)

If that were the issue, the solution is to require that either the parent or suitable expert be brought into the conversation. As it stands, there is no option but to inform the parents separately from (instead of?) those experts.

My personal opinion is expert first, who then coordinates parent notification. I have no problem with the idea that parents need to be brought into the conversation, I just think that most parents are as ill-equipped to move forward as I am. I want the experts involved. If my child comes to me, finding expertise will be at the top of my list. The more I think about it, the more convinced I am that finding expertise should be at the top of the list, regardless.

[–] [email protected] 2 points 2 years ago (1 children)

Thanks for the conversation, I agree with your stance and it feels like it's the best middle ground between just informing the parent right away and never tell them. It make sense.

[–] [email protected] 1 points 2 years ago

Thanks to you, too. It's really nice to have respectful discussions of complex topics.

If I've made sense, it's only because this kind of discussion helps me understand a little more each day.

[–] [email protected] 1 points 2 years ago (1 children)

I don't think they have the capacity to read more then a paragraph unfortunately. :(

[–] [email protected] 1 points 2 years ago

I don't think we need to bring insults in. They have their views. I don't know how they came to those views, but they are clearly as strongly held as mine. I didn't read anything to convince me that they were arguing in bad faith and I can only hope that they are as willing as I am to accept that there might be some hard edges that need softening.