this post was submitted on 04 Jul 2025
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[–] [email protected] 18 points 1 week ago (12 children)

In Marx it's gravitational, supply and demand are part of large cohort of turbulent regulators, constantly undershooting and overshooting each other while achieving turbulent equalization of profit rates, but NEVER sustained equilibrium like liberal economics asserts

The "gravitational bodies" that supply and demand "orbit" are the leading regulating capitals in any given sector, who are leading because they establish the lowest unit cost-price of production that other firms "gravitate" around......."Wal-Mart in a small town" being a common textbook example

Liberal economics doesn't believe regulating capitals exist and that supply and demand orbit each other in a perfect eclipse and if they don't it's because the government and workers are "cheating"

[–] [email protected] 3 points 1 week ago* (last edited 1 week ago) (11 children)

This makes sense, but then what determines the profits of the regulating capitals?

Maybe I'm asking the wrong question, but: assuming every firm faces similar costs (within a short, representative time window, meaning no one has just come up with some huge cost-saving mechanism that has yet to propagate), and assuming profit is therefore a question of raising prices more than lowering costs, is profit mainly limited by the wiggle room of imperfect competition (e.g., with perfect competition there would be 0 profit), or by consumer willingness to pay within that window, or does it depend on the industry—or is my framing wrong, and/or I'm asking the wrong question entirely? Am I looking in the right direction or missing the point?

[–] [email protected] 3 points 1 week ago* (last edited 1 week ago) (10 children)

Lower costs, undercutting, technical development, patent hoarding, scalability, and bought government patronage are how regulating capitals generate the "gravitational profits" other firms in their sector orbit, including other regulating capitals, because leading capitals also regulate each other, even across sectors

Creating not sustained perfect or even imperfect equilibrium, but instead turbulent equalization of prices, equalization is the reason you can ask the average Joe on the street what the price of milk is and they'll give you a rough and accurate estimation of the price, even if milk prices turbulently rise and fall over the long years, even though milk prices are equalized across the country around an average: $3-5 in this case

And like perfect competition is fiction, there's also no such thing as "imperfect competition" because that idea also arises right out of the liberal whine about workers, firms and governments "cheating" the market of it's "rightful" returns. No, there's only competition-as-war, that's what defines capital accumulation; profits arise from those firms that can cut costs and undercut their competitors, raising prices is only a secondary bonus if you can get away with it before bumping into another regulator, what's important is lowering costs which is why I placed it first amongst the list of profit generators and also why the wage vs profit contradiction is always the most important aspect of the system in general

From those two simple ideas (low costs and undercutting) arise everything we see under capitalism; the regulation of supply and demand by profitability, the everlasting desire to suppress wages that cut into profits, the drive toward technical developments to make production easier and cheaper, the cowardly need of all capitalists to run away from competition and toward rent-seeking behaviors etc.

Regulating capitals are large armies trying to keep at bay a 100 smaller armies from eating their lunch, and the 100 smaller armies are also competing amongst each other, one year a mid sized army may discover how to make a better cannon and they supplant a leading regulator and take its place, another year a small army figures out how to conscript more soldiers and they overwhelm a dozen other smaller competitors, putting themselves one step closer to becoming the regulator instead of the regulated

Profits comes from firms picking the right combinations at the right time from these options: Lower costs, technical development, undercutting, patent hoarding, scalability, and government patronage but lower costs is typically the primary, go-to solution

[–] [email protected] 3 points 1 week ago (1 children)

Are you familiar with Shaikh's Capitalism: Competition, Conflict, and Crisis? I've been slowly going through the book for some time and these descriptions are also explained there. Its one of sources I pull from in my own understanding

[–] [email protected] 4 points 1 week ago (2 children)

I sure do, he's one of my primary sources alongside Stafford Beer

[–] [email protected] 2 points 1 week ago (1 children)

Do you have any good recommendations for understanding the Viable Systems Model? Something more formal than the descriptions one can easily find on YouTube or wikipedia? I am acquainted with some modern complexity science, and have wanted to find where complexity science meets old school cybernetics.

[–] [email protected] 2 points 1 week ago

Beer's book Platform for Change is my go to resource, but if you want more technical stuff his book Diagnosing the System for Organizations is interesting, because you literally see him describing how the system forces the choices I illustrated in my previous comment that capitalists face every day

[–] [email protected] 1 points 1 week ago (1 children)

What stuff by Stafford Beer have you enjoyed the most?

[–] [email protected] 2 points 1 week ago

Platform for Change and Diagnosing the System for Organizations are my main resources from Beer

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