“Opposing genocide in Ukraine means you aren’t a leftist”
Lmao, you can oppose a genocide without advocating for US involvement, genius
Ya know, the thing I'm taking away from this entire disagreement is that the one common party in both conflicts is the US.
This is a huge leap of logic, but maybe WE are the problem.
Except Ukraine, it would seem
Russia can get fucked, but they aren't a ethno-nationalist settler-colonial project predicated on anti-arab racism dead-set on purging Palestine completely. Only a coward would hide behind Russia in order to avoid condemning the utter depravity of the US and Israel.
FUCK Russia, but FUCK the west too. No states, no masters.
At least you're not larping as a leftist anymore.
… because I point out that people who purity test themselves out of cooperating with potential allies over when minimal effort is required on their part will do the same thing when major effort is required on their part?
No, because binary categories themselves are what stop insufficiently-motivated liberals like yourself from doing the right thing at all. You're the one trying to shove activists into a box and calling them right-wingers. The only one advocating for a purity test is you LMFAO. The lack of self-awareness is fucking incredible.
Which is why he made sure to oppose LBJ, right?
Only because he was already amicable to his cause. You think the democrats deserve the same charitability when they've roundly rejected ours? Besides, if they deserved any leeway previously when they were in power, they sure as fuck don't deserve it now
Ironic, considering that MLK, a socialist, worked with LBJ, despite the Dems being much more gruesome and despicable then.
He worked with people who were willing to work with him - democrats are far less willing to negotiate than LBJ ever was. Maybe the next lot will be more sensible.
Already pointed out that criticism of the Dems isn’t what’s being criticized here, but whatever you need to confirm the paranoia that I’m a Fed or a warhawk or whatever it is that you’ve got going on.
I don't think you are a fed, just that you're the most thumb-sounding self-described 'leftist' I've ever seen on lemmy. And no, not 'criticism of dems', just criticism directed at the dems that also apply to republicans, because that's apparently not very fair to your feelings.
Infinite tolerance for ‘flawed’ allies until that ‘flawed’ ally is in any way linked to the dreaded shitlibs. At that point, genocide and imperialism become a matter of ‘bothsides’.
This is what no-theory does to a motherfucker. There are no 'good guys' in the Ukrainian war except the people of Ukraine themselves, only giant and bloated imperial states fighting over imaginary territorial lines with the unwilling sacrifice of working class blood. Tankies might object to that war because they prefer Russia to the west, but I oppose that war because the working class is forced to battle over geopolitical supremacy, and in the end will live as indentured servants to the west. The working class have everything to lose and the least to gain from that war. I have zero problem condemning that whole conflict.
No war but class war, bootlicker.
even when criticizing groups in the midst of fighting fascism, and now you’re saying being critical of Islamists is a ‘red flag’ for being “anti-imperialism and anti-tankie”
If i could give out three nobel peace prizes, the first would be to the south african delegation, the second to the doctors in gaza, and the third to the houthis. We might disagree on a lot, but i'll join hands with anyone to fight for the right to self-determination of any people against any genocide.
I don't cherry pick which fascist states get to conduct imperialist genocides and which don't - if the democrats think themselves above criticism for contributing to genocide abroad then they are my enemy, too.
the exact kind of ‘bothsides’ bullshit that leads people to abstain from siding with the less-vile choice of two in an election will certainly lead people to abstain from siding with the less-vile choice in issues of action that require something greater than an hour of a single day of their life.
LMFAO, get the fuck out of here with that white moderate bullshit. Are you serious?? Lol I can't get over this. It's like if you took MLK's 'the Negro's great stumbling block' quote and just removed the part about white moderates. Even he knew that the movement's greatest hurtle wasn't the actual-fucking KKK, but the democrats who continuously told them that 'now is not the time'. Lmao. Yes, both sides are bad, that's why we're fucking pointing it out so we can fix it. What an absolute dipshit revisionist you are.
why the fuck would you wait until the last minute to address an issue?
Oh, did you just not understand what I was talking about? I'm pointing to your complaints about 'bothsiders' pointing to glaring issues within the democratic party. Yea, of-fucking-course now is the time to address these issues. That's why it's fucking crazy that you picked now to meme about 'bothsiders' drumming up inter-party tension well away from any of our next elections. This is when the tension needs to happen.
Fucking make up your mind lmao, is it good or bad to drum up tension about the bad shit in the democratic party, and is it good or bad right now? Do we have your permission? Is now a good time?
Unfortunately, the data provided by leftists on Lemmy has been very convincing in putting forward that even a single one - namely, leftists abstaining from voting Dem over their personal issue of choice - could have saved us from fascism.
I would much rather have this conversation, because I find it endlessly interesting. The one thing i'm sure about is it doesn't help in the slightest to focus blame on voters or casting aspersions at people criticizing democrats. Especially when those people aren't creating the tension - it's present regardless if democrats suppress discussing it.
No matter how you slice it, though - the sentiment that's consistent across the board is that democrats/democracy are incapable/uninterested of fixing the problems we're feeling, regardless of what we think they are. Class conciousness/material analysis is so piss-poor here that almost everyone has their own idea of the most important issue, but every one of them results in the same populism we're seeing on left and right of center. People just don't believe our problems can be fixed through democratic means, and on the left it manifests as apathy/despair, and on the right it manifests as fascism.
I personally think oligarchy is a fantastic massaging vehicle, not only because it's correctly identifying the issue of capital (this is the defining feature of leftism, btw), it's actually addressing the visceral reaction to the many different failures everyone can actually feel. Even the war in Gaza and Ukraine can be tied back to oligarchy and capital. But for sure what doesn't work is 'alpha energy', 'losing our woke reputation', and 'slow, responsible progress' narratives from people like Slotkin and Jefferies. "Everyone is too radical" and "don't rock the fucking boat" messaging will do fuck-all, too.
The only war I’ve supported, not the only one I’ve concerned myself with.
I’ve expressed deep opposition to Israel’s ongoing genocide in Gaza, as well as their invasions of neighboring states.
'Concern' was my attribution to you, I know you don't personally consider yourself unconcerned with the other conflicts. Maybe it's because you spent the first half of 2024 leveling these 'bothsides' accusations against anyone bringing up Gaza but were unbothered by people drumming up energy around the war in Ukraine. I'm also pretty sure i've seen you in the comments complaining about Houthi rebels and Hamas liberation groups resisting against western imperialism, which to me is a red flag for someone claiming to be anti-imperialism and anti-tankie. If you say the other conflicts concern you I guess I just don't buy it, based on what you spend your time talking about. It might just be that I'm reading the democratic priority messaging through your activity and it has nothing to do with your personal tastes for armed conflict. Who knows, but as someone who thinks the US is particularly guilty for war and famine across the globe, even simply 'supporting' the war in Ukraine is gross to me.
Lord
Yea, that's my sentiment too.
If it had anything to do with electoralism you wouldn't be whinging about this 3 and a half years before the next election
That’s funny, because I’ve had numerous ‘leftist’ posters tell me that the Dems lost because of progressives abstaining due to one pet issue or another.
Maybe they lost because they actively avoided addressing any issues.
The only war that I’ve been in support of since I’ve been on Lemmy has been the war in Ukraine against Russian imperialism and genocide.
The only war you've concerned yourself with is a war that has the biggest geopolitical implications. In a certain light, this looks a little like you're only really concerned with wars that have the biggest implications for western geopolitical soft power (which is absolutely true about Ukraine). If it were on the merits of 'opposing imperialist ambitions and genocide' as the anti-tankie label suggests, I would think the genocide in gaza would at least rank, since Isreal's imperial ambitions and actions in Gaza and the middle east are far more recent, bloody, and asymmetrical than the war in Ukraine.
As an anarchist living in America, I have a whole lot of questions for anyone who strongly cares about the Russian invasion of Ukraine but doesn't seem to give two shits about the imperial ambitions of a western ally in the ME. Maybe 'warhawk' isn't quite the right term, but 'leftist' is for sure not the right one.
You present far more like a career security advisor working out of the pentagon, but I'm not conspiratorial enough to seriously think that - tho it is interesting to think about.
When there is an immediate crisis coming up, wherein messaging is extremely important, and you choose to amplify messages that help fascists without bothering to amplify messages that damage fascists, it’s difficult to see that as anything except service to fascism.
Democrats wanted everyone to shut up about how much was wrong that needed fixing so that they could win, and leftists wanted democrats to acknowledge how much was wrong that needed fixing so that they could win.
Throwing the leftists in with the right-wingers assumes that the rest of the country wasn't already feeling the pain the democrats were trying to suppress.
Those who present of all major sides of an issue to be indistinguishable because they are both flawed, with the implicit or explicit exhortation to support neither, when there are obvious and important differences between the two with one being unambiguously preferable.
Lmao, here's what this reads like:
A person who complicates a binary political choice at politically inexpedient moment by pointing out a flaw present in both binaries
No wonder American politics has regressed into pure symbols and signs.
I don’t disagree? At the same time
Just stop.
Now is the time to decouple from the Dems, if you’re going to do it
Right, so why are we playing semantic games with categorizations when now is the time to be pointing out why the democrats are unelectable (while on the topic, that is why they lost to trump). The body politic moved out from underneath them and they didn't react. It isn't because some stubborn group of progressives were making a fuss about a pet issue. I don't care if you wanna wring your hands that the republicans are a greater evil than the dems, i care that centrists (like, actual moderates who run cover for democrats by claiming their the only "realistic" option, coughcough) keep turning their anger at the people pushing for the things they claim to support but never 'when it comes down to the metal'.
But if there’s one thing that Lemmy has taught me, it’s that while leftists might be less repugnant than the general population, we’re not actually any smarter.
Is leftist some fun outfit you put on sometimes when the weather suits you? You've been using this account for long enough I think most of us have you pegged as a warhawk liberal, not any kind of 'leftist' - none I would ever care to work with, at least.
I see no problems with comparing Russia to Nazi Germany.