ThereRisesARedStar

I think democracy is important for non-ego reasons- scientific socialism works better within an internal democracy, democratic consultation and deliberation create institutional knowledge in a way bureaucracies don't.

I don't see any reasonable benefit to PSL not being democratic at this stage of the struggle- if they don't have the educational capacity to onboard new members they should create probation membership status (less ideal but those membership dues though) or stagger cohorts.

Nope, although some caucuses have published stuff like this: https://redstarcaucus.org/cuban-links/ and the international committee is establishing guidelines for future trips to prevent the same nonsense from happening. We should apologize but Cuba also understands that DSA is a big tent org with some shitty folks in it.

I mean, tut tutting israel is actually pulling them left- it used to be a lot worse, and there is value in having DSA not be actively zionist. It isn't like DSA is tut tutting but then also shipping bombs to Israel.

I really don't see how "hey, your org very clearly isn't democratic" is a purity test. PSL straight up isn't democratic in internal structure, internal democratic structure is actually important for a party to function in a healthy way.

Then join another group that better represents your vision of demcent policy and scientific socialism, or fuck, make your own party. My point is that the DSA is not worth a comrades who are not already established members within its time.

"join a sect or form another sect" is a deeply unserious suggestion. Like the whole argument here is "there are better orgs out there" and there really isn't if you actually want to do work with a critical mass.

TBF folks are out here being Calvinists in this thread to individual succdems.

But yeah, I agree, don't join social democratic orgs. But DSA isn't a social democrat org, it sure is contested by them, but the majority of the NPC is a mixture of communists of varying levels of good.

The less tut-tutty stuff barely failed, which I would call progress, it sucks that that is where it is at but movement is happening.

I am more concerned about long term development- not having democracy isn't conducive to scientific socialism, and you aren't demcent without the dem.

THE PSL isn't capable of doing demcent or scientific socialism if this is correct? https://archive.org/details/party-for-socialism-and-liberation-psl-constitution-2022/page/6/mode/2up

The central committee being able to select up to 40 percent of delegates means it's going to be inflexible and less capable of developing in the long term, even if it starting from a better ideological position.

It's moving left though? Certainly not fast enough to meet this revolutionary moment but it is.

And if you are still a social democrat after the 2020 election cycle, you either weren't paying attention, and shouldn't be trusted, or you are hopelessly naive, and shouldn't be trusted.

What percent of the US population is currently beyond social democrat? We don't have to win over most people, but we have to win over some people to socialism. Like, IDK, a couple percent? I trust them less if they learn now than if they learned a while ago, but it is still worth educating folks. I've seen some folks really change for the better in the time I've been in DSA.

There is massive inertia, and the NPC is currently minority social democrat. The problem is Trotskyists with shitty third camp opinions making up the deciding votes, which is a better situation than a previously social democrat led org, and you know, those folks can be further pushed as they see the consequences of their actions not work out as they hoped. They're not mustache twirling villians, they're just wrong.

Oh PSL has been a lot better than DSA nationals at organizing large protests, totally. I have other problems with PSL, from their election structure to how my local PSL seems to operate, which is were I'd be spending the overwhelming amount of my time if I were to hop orgs.