Arkouda

How do you define "pure math discovery"?

Reading this again, I see you’re not a Zionist but just a person interested in nuance and the actual truth here. That’s good, the source is doing the thing where you cut out a soundbite and make rage bait out of it.

Thank you for understanding where I am coming from.

So what’s the solution here? Both sides are human, and will harbour grudges and gravitate to ideologies that legitimise them. Peace has been imposed under similar situations before.

I think possible solutions get far more complicated the longer everything is allowed to go on.

If I was given the power of decision I would have international boots on the ground, disarm all parties and security would be the responsibility of the international third parties, every single person who committed a crime must be brought before the courts and charged from all sides of this, an extensive deprogramming and education program to de-radicalize the populations, at which point each side will be given the ability to set up their own systems of government and be given more freedoms from the international community regarding personal defense as each state demonstrates its good faith in moving into the international community and following international law. Both states will be recognized by the international community at large, and I believe it is the responsibility of all Governments involved to fund reparations for the civilians who have been impacted or displaced, as well as a right to return for every single person.

Now I know this is an incredibly tall, and even seemingly impossible order. At the end of the day this is the only way I see lasting peace when considering the long and bloody history of this conflict. As you pointed out peace has been imposed before and not lasted, but I think a big mistake is it wasn't done correctly because it did not address those deep wounds and scars within the communities, or the radicalization present in the populations.

I agree, Israel has become a major problem. That does not change the problems that exist on the Palestinian side. Things can be wrong simultaneously.

Why do other ethnic and religious groups exist in modern day Israel if they were all supposed to be expelled or exterminated?

Whatever you say bud.

I am not wasting further time with you.

In what world is this "Palestinians fighting occupation forces"?

Are you saying that Hamas is equal to Palestinians?

Has fighting?

The last 30 years of Israeli state policy after the Oslo accords has resulted in facts on the ground (Israeli phrasing, not mine) to the tune of 700k Israeli settlers in the West Bank.

Which is wrong.

As the various calls for two states invariably ignore the Israeli facts on the ground, and do not propose any realistic vision for undoing them, at this stage they are merely promoting the creation of a Bantustan within the existing apartheid framework.

Anyone who actually agrees with the two state solution agrees that the borders go back to 1967, and everyone on both sides will have a right to return.

In other words, the israeli facts on the ground have killed off the possibility of a two state solution, where Palestine would be an actual state. This means there are only two options: A) a continuation of the apartheid regime of the present, potentially with a Palestinian collaborationist Banstustan, and with various degrees of Israeli perpetrated genocide and ethnic cleansing thrown in during the inevitable flare-ups of violence.

B) a plurinational post-apartheid democratic state with equal rights for all nationalities and religions from the Jordan to the Mediterranean.

The chance for a Palestinian state is not gone, and Israel is not alone in making that harder. Even if you ignore Israelis and Palestinians, plenty of other groups don't want peace and sabotage it when it is close.

Neither one of your solutions is viable, and it isn't that black and white.

I guess the third option is for Israel to self-ethnically cleanse the settlers from the West Bank, but that sounds even more outlandish than the supposedly idealistic option B.

This is not helpful or useful in this conversation.

There used to be an phrase that Israel can be “large, Jewish, democratic, but can only pick 2”. Over the last 30 years since Oslo, successive Israeli governments, more or less dominated by the Israeli Right, and basically by Netanyahu, has forced the choice of “Large”. So now the Israelis have to pick between Zionism and Democracy.

At least you can admit it isn't all Israelis.

It isn't circular logic because international law is what gives a country a right to exist. It isn't any more complicated than that for the sake of this conversation.

And you watched the news for the past year and concluded that Palestinians are the problem?

I have been studying this issue since the early 2000's. I did not just start watching recently like the majority of the loudest ignoramus' in the conversation.

I mean, of course they are. They murder their own children, they play sounds of crying babies so that other Palestinians come out to find it so they can snipe those idiots, they murder ambulance drivers and the little child that was a witness to that massacre, I mean Palestinians are evil, man!

Oh wait, that was all the IDF.

The IDF is not a saint in this and that is absolutely obvious. This is what happens when leaders with genocidal rhetoric gain power. They use the military for their own purposes, which are usually genocidal.

This does not change the actions of Hamas, or the Palestinians who support Hamas, and those actions do not justify the attacks on civilians.

Yeah, Hamas is an issue and you’d have a point to mention that (because I can already see you furuously scribbling that) of it weren’t for the fact that Hamas is (in good part) funded by Israel just to give the Israeli army an excuse to murder even more Palestinians.

They funded Hamas, and from what I know, no longer fund Hamas. Which was absolutely disgusting. They are also funded by numerous other countries in modern times including Iran.

Nazis were the evil monsters of the 1940s. The Israeli government and army are the evil monsters of, well, the past 50 or so years? I remember the news reports fucking 40 years ago where the IDF would snipe murder young Palestinian kids because they throw rocks at them… All of these fucks should be swinging from the highest crane we can find

Yes, we should deal with everyone who has committed war crimes.

But you may not want to go back to Nazi Germany to hold your point about the "Peaceful Palestinians" though. In case you didn't know, the Palestinians worked with the Nazis and made a deal that stated they would help with the war effort if after the war Germany came and exterminated all of the Jewish population in what was then Mandatory Palestine.

I don't agree with the occupation or Israels current behavior.