men

Agreed. Worst case scenario if we were kicked off of here (which I don't think will happen. we're not a hate sub), we could migrate to a dedicated instance hosted by one of our own members. But I don't think that will ever be necessary.

We do not say that women are the problem. But we also disagree that men are the problem.

We need to address traditional gender norms in an egalitarian way. We support freeing women from them. But we must not forget about freeing men also.

That means we can't accept misandry from any movement that claims to fight for gender equality. And that unfortunately leads us into conflict with feminist ideology and feminist praxis.

The difference between feminism (or even feminists) and men is that the former is a movement or a chosen label, while the latter is not something one can choose to be. So when you generalize the latter (“men are pigs”, “men are responsible for the world’s problems”, or even “Kill All Men”), it really comes across as outright hateful. At least more so than criticizing a movement (feminism) or generalizing feminists (although I don’t believe in doing that too). Seriously, if you were to replace “men” with “blacks”, or even “women” in feminist drivel, you’d be (rightfully) called out for spreading hate. For how much feminism pushes inclusivity and careful, considerate use in language (think: using ‘police officer’ instead of ‘policeman’), when it comes to men, they just give fuck all.

And for the ‘wage gap’, it should really be renamed the ‘earnings gap’ as for the same amount and type of work, men and women are generally paid the same. The main reason there’s a gap is that men generally work more and in higher paying fields. Now why they choose to do so is certainly worth discussion, but to frame it as men being paid more with the insinuation that they both do the same amount of work, is disingenuous.

Men taking on less domestic responsibilities is part of gender roles, no? In exchange they are expected to earn more by working more. Not to mention when you say domestic responsibilities, I doubt you include male dominated tasks like mowing the lawn, or fixing the car. Again, framing it as one-sided privilege (‘men have the privilege of doing less house work”) is disingenuous. I don’t think housekeeping or child-rearing, which is female-dominated, is a walk in the park either, for reference.

If you believe the system allows specifically men to vote away women’s rights (abortions I believe?), and that men shouldn’t have a say in that. Do you also believe women shouldn’t have a say in voting on issues like Selective Service or even conscription, in some countries, that primarily or uniquely affect men? Furthermore, in many countries, women are outright born with the right to vote, whereas men have to sign up for Selective Service or Conscription (what happened to ‘My Body, My Choice’?)

E: grammar

In Western countries like most of the European ones, men and women receive equal pay for equal jobs.

Families already share responsibilities equally (fair, not everywhere; I can speak for the north of Italy), and women feel free not to engage with boyfriends who are not up to that.

Finally, in the US it's mostly women who are voting against women's childbirth rights.

I think you are conflating men as a group with men as individuals.

I don't, but most feminists do.

I think when they say "men are the problem" that's shorthand for a system

Then they should blame society, not men as a group. Most men don't have any more influence on the system than most women do.

And what do you think constant negative messaging about men as a group being the problem does to the minds of boys growing up? Are you surprised many of them go down the alt-right radicalization pipeline?

a system that generally pays men more

I don't know where this is true, but certainly not in Western countries, where such discrimination by gender is illegal.

expects them to take on less domestic responsibilities

More a question of expecting men to take on different domestic responsibilities, on top of expecting men to be the primary providers.

allows them to vote away women's rights

Instead, men overwhelmingly voted for granting women equal rights.

and all of the other longstanding injustices

You mean injustices such as conscription, age of retirement, homelessness, etc?

The government of Russia ≠ the people of Russia. Men are just a gender. There is no government of men. When you say "men are the problem", you are talking about individual men and men as a whole.

Society also expects men to earn more and ties their value to how much wealth they have. Women play a part in this too just as men do. It also expects men to take on more responsibilities outside of the house.

There are as many injustices against men as there are against women. What happened with Roe v. Wade being overturned is terrible, but when it happened people actually cared for women's wellbeing. Including myself.

Where is the outrage over any of the injustices that men face (the draft, male genital mutilation, exclusion from homeless/DV shelters, family court, etc.)? There is none, because when women are victims of injustice people care; conversely when men are victims no one cares.

At worst, feminist literature will try to ignore male victims to make DV seem like a gendered crime, taking away services from men, and make out so-called male victims as abusers in disguise (like the book "Why Does He Do That?").

Hopefully it will be like the subreddits he moderated. They turned out quite nicely. Unapologetically advocating for men from an egalitarian perspective while also being unapologetic about defending against the misandrist detractors, a large number of whom call themselves feminists and leverage feminist ideology.

Hey brother

I'm in a similar boat as you, and watched TRP go from "this is info men need to know, and soon" to religious conservative grifters, and similarly upset about it

And then watching menslib and others get setup so men could talk in "approved" ways

But all of that makes it even more important to me not to abandon other labels to grifters. It just makes it easier for them to dissipate any momentum we might accrue for social change.

I’m not sure how you got that from my comment that I was talking about feminism as a whole. You asked what we think about r/MensLib and that’s what I answered.

However, I did address feminism as a whole in the post I just made in this magazine.

We don't do personal attacks here. Comment removed.

Yeah, I think the left wing generally espouses tolerance and equality, so anyone saying "hey, this group is being marginalized, we should fix that" should naturally find a home in the left wing. The right wing is more about rigid hierarchy and "this is the way the world is ordered, don't challenge it".