this post was submitted on 09 Mar 2024
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what were those family members up to?
It is possible that your family faced repression, and it is possible that it was for unfair reasons, but I doubt it was solely for 'being jewish'.
Could you elaborate on their circumstances? I truly would like to know.
I have Jewish ancestry that spreads all over Eastern Europe, and through genealogy and plain old talking with family, I've found no repression by communists on account of Jewishness. Some of my family don't like communists and stated criticisms otherwise, but not for any reason related to antisemitism.
I don't mean to shut you down - I am just quite curious.
Have you heard any of their accounts in any more detail than that? I know it's hard to poke family members for holocaust memories, but is there a chance that some of the story has been lost along the way?
Lots of Jews were sent to Siberia during the war in order to shield them from the German advance that would've executed them on the spot. It is true that in 1940 there was a mass deportation of Polish and Jewish people to Siberia. In Siberia, conditions were definitely harsh but they were harsh for everyone, and were the way they were out of necessity for the war on the doorstep. Many who lived through the Siberian camps note that they were allowed to observe the Sabbath, that they were fed within the means of what was available, and that they received adequate medical care.
As for a move from Auschwitz to a Siberian work camp - that is certainly unfortunate but a very fringe occurrence. In accounts that this is reported to have happened, it has been on account of misunderstandings of Nazi collaboration - some Jews survived by performing acts of service and skill to their Nazi masters - a moral choice I cannot judge, that was in some cases misconstrued by soviet commanders as criminal.
In those scenarios (which may or may not resemble your family's circumstances), I wouldn't say the root of their mistreatment was them being Jewish. The majority of Auschwitz survivors were of course not sent to Siberia. The Soviet Union did not practice wide scale antisemitic policies.
What do you think?
Are there any resources you could recommend about Jewish Nationalism in Russia? Whenever I look it up I just get swamped with stuff about Stalins relationship to Zionism, I suppose because Zionism is a current issue so it dominates my search algorithm.
Thanks for your insight.
When you say Jewish nationalism are you talking about zionism? This is probably the most common liberal critique of Stalin, conflating antizionism and antisemitism. If anything, history has shown that the USSR should've been more aggressive and consistent when repressing zionism.
I think the experience of the holocaust made it pretty clear that rightwing ethnic nationalism is extremely dangerous and very damaging to the working class solidarity needed to fight racism.
What were those family members charged with? I know that the Nazi camps (presumably even including Auschwitz) were used in the immediate aftermath of the war as housing for the people they had imprisoned while resettlement was being sorted out, but I've never heard of people going from a death camp to a Siberian prison (partly because that's a bit of a trip, all the way from Central Europe to Northeast Asia). Could it have been, for instance, that they were resettled in the Jewish Autonomous Oblast in Siberia, committed some mundane crimes over there (nothing against them for this, people with severe PTSD usually struggle to reintegrate with society) and then got sent to a local prison? Without further information, it's very difficult to figure out what might have happened, especially for someone like me who is not too knowledgeable (and unfortunately I don't think my local library has relevant information).
:doubt:
Was that before or after 1948?
Some was around 1933/34. Some was after the war.
You wouldn't happen to know their names, jobs, charges, or whatever, in regards to the reasons of why that happened, would you?
A simple what they were actually charged with would save a lot of back and forth like this.
Would you also disclose what charges of crime were placed on them?
"I'm 60 years old" account looks like it was made by an edgy zoomer, what a goon
how does it feel to be the only person whose ancestors were killed by stalin for being jewish
I enjoy when people try to re-write history. There is a lot written about this. Perhaps turn off the computer and go to a library and educate your mind instead of being ignorant.
who did he kill for being jewish
https://prolespod.libsyn.com/episode-31-stalin-was-a-mensch-a-look-at-the-antisemitism-of-the-ussr
Go read some Draitser and Kostyrchenko.
Not going through this charade. If you’ve read them, then you can cite specific evidence.
But he's literally asking your help to not remain ignorant and close-minded?
If you have selections or evidence from the readings then sharing them would help all of us learn from each other. Can you please share some?
I hear you, man. There are a lot of people here who admire Stalin and react to critiques of him or USSR, I know I'm personally more appreciative of Stalin and USSR than I am rejecting him or USSR myself but they weren't perfect and had their flaws. It's really because we are always surrounded by, and grew up with, propaganda uncritically vilifying both Stalin and USSR and people get tired of hearing it all the time.
My girlfriend is a post-Soviet Russian and her family got moved around a couple of times under Stalin so they're not too happy about him, and one side hid their Jewishness probably due to prejudice/antisemitism that they faced—so it's clear some existed for them to hide it but it certainly wasn't to the point of avoiding imprisonment or extermination. She's still a Communist for what it's worth and they had a decent life in Soviet Union but she kinda takes the mainstream line on Stalin—that's all I'll say about that because it's caused friction with us before. Haha Anyway, opinions on Stalin range and I'm open to hearing about yours. People here usually very openly share evidence and sources for their claims to combat the decades of Western propaganda that's made us uncritically reject Stalin/USSR so that's why people are asking for yours.
I can appreciate you shared some personal information already but if you can also please share the evidence you alluded to reading then it would at least help me understand where you're coming from better. We also don't always have the luxury of reading every book and heavily researching all subjects so sharing like this is a form of collective education. So can you please share some of what you've researched?
I don't think it was unreasonable to ask, given the number of descendants of Nazi collaborators that have embarrassed themselves making similar claims while leaving out their family history. If the case of your own family did include innocent victims of the purges/ethnic cleansings, that's a tragic reminder that socialism doesn't have a spotless history and we need to work to do better in the future.
Some of my family went from Auschwitz to work camps.
one really obvious thing would make it ok is if they were in fact not actually innocent.
if they were hoarding food or something would you have been told about that?
So for you someone's life is worth a "bag of food" I'm not sure what you're saying here? There was no food and the hardship was great for a lot of people.
I live through some of it. I'm in my 60s. I didn't live through Stalin but the times after him weren't that great either. I lived in Ukraine and Poland.
where the fuck did you get that from?
That's why I'm asking for clarification. Because you damn well better believe that I'd do everything in my power to make sure my family is not starving and if someone came and murdered my family for doing that, that's fucking cold blooded.
hoarding isn't a solution to shortage, it creates shortage ya kulak
That's a question I'd direct to your ancestors if they were hoarding food during a famine to price-gouge the poorer peasantry.
Of course, that's just one possibility, but we know people were killed for that reason and we don't have even the slightest evidence people were killed by the CC for "being Jewish" during that period, so if you can't produce any better historical evidence, the default is probably that they were twisting the knife on famine victims and don't need tears shed for them.
No they were poor miners and factory workers.
Then the question comes back to what they were actually charged with.
Hold on, I thought they were forced to do prison labor because they were Jewish, not for “Bourgeois nationalism.” Granted there was no charge for being Jewish in the USSR, then again where does this certainty come from?
“Read up on that” like you actually wrote anything worthwhile. I haven’t seen any real evidence that “bourgeois nationalism” is as a rule a cover charge, especially since it is a real thing?
I'm honestly not trying to be disrespectful to your family members, especially if they managed to miraculously survive Auschwitz, but have you honestly considered and acknowledged to yourself that maybe they were detained for being anti-communist pro-bourgeois ~~capitalists~~ reactionaries?
I'm not saying it's impossible for some forms of antisemitism to exist in USSR, it wasn't perfect nor was it populated by perfect people, but there wasn't an antisemitic genocide there like in Nazi Germany and this kinda sounds like it was actually about something else entirely.
Apparently some were sentenced to forced prison labor despite not even being accused of anything specific, much less charged (can't find any cases of this)? The liquidation of Jewish people from positions of authority is one thing to accuse the USSR of (despite numerous examples showing this was not done across the board), but the idea that ordinary people ("poor miners and factory workers") were sent to do compulsory labor for being Jewish/Ukrainian is even more strange considering how poorly this alleged goal was carried out.