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Just baffling (lemmy.ml)

submitted 6 days ago by [email protected] to c/[email protected]

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[–] [email protected] -3 points 5 days ago (16 children)

You claim that this is happening most of the time. I point out that the nom-imperialist nations, which make up the majority if the liberal nations, are not doing this so from a sheer numerical perspective your claim is flawed as most are not doing this.

Ypu can try to shift the goalposts but if the non-imperialistic liberal nations are the larger group then your claim cannot be true because factually speaking it us not happening in most liberal nations.

[–] [email protected] 7 points 5 days ago (15 children)

Just because this point still seems to not be getting through:

If I say you need enough heat, fuel, and oxygen to start a fire, and you say if you don’t have heat you don’t have fire, I’m still correct. I have never once said that the global south is imperialist, I said the opposite.

No goalposts shifted. This has been my point from the very beginning.

[–] [email protected] -4 points 5 days ago (14 children)

That is the shifting of the goalposts because you initially claim that this imperialism is happening in most nations and now you are claiming it would happen if it could which means it is not actually happening thus your claim is inherently flawed

[–] [email protected] 7 points 5 days ago (1 children)

It’s a trend observable in all capitalist nations. If you develop enough, the rate of profit falls, and so you need to expand outward to profit. This is the basis of imperialism, the carving out of the global south for profit. Across the west, this is a fact, even if it manifests in different ways.

Those on the imperialized end cannot themselves really become imperialist, and the total capital to be imperialized is limited

[+] [email protected] -6 points 5 days ago (1 children)

Highlighting notions based on a flawed premise do not make those claims more valid.

This is a numbers argument. Unless you are going to claim there are more liberal nations engaging in imperialism than are victims of it your claim that it happens most of the time cannot be true.

[–] [email protected] 6 points 5 days ago* (last edited 5 days ago) (1 children)

I'm not validating their claim, I'm debunking the shifting goalpost argument. They since the beginning of the argument points out that the trend happens in all developed capitalist nations minus the ones that suffers from imperialism.

[–] [email protected] -4 points 5 days ago (2 children)

Except it isn’t observable in all nations which is their claim. What you add is shifting the goalposts from that initial claim.

[–] [email protected] 7 points 5 days ago* (last edited 5 days ago) (1 children)

The claim was

It’s a trend observable in all capitalist nations. If you develop enough, the rate of profit falls, and so you need to expand outward to profit. This is the basis of imperialism, the carving out of the global south for profit. Across the west, this is a fact, even if it manifests in different ways.

The trend is observable on the imperialized nations as well as the imperialist ones.

Imperialism is not a one way street, the effects of imperalialism are observable (lower capitalistic development, higher profit extraction, etc).

The fact that the countries with more developed capital are the ones doing imperialism and the countries with less developed capital are the ones imperialized (and oberving how this stays true historicllly) is proof of the trend.

[–] [email protected] -4 points 5 days ago

All means 100%. The fact that an exception is made where it does not happens means it is not “all”.

Of course all of this presumes the rest is true and that has never been adequately demonstrated to be the case. Marxist assertions are called “theory” by leftists but they do not have that level of credibility or validity IRL. It is always worth remembering “theory” is really from from the case

[–] [email protected] 7 points 5 days ago (1 children)

No it's not. He sets the scope as "all capitalist nations that have not been imperialised", which is logical. How can an imperialised country be imperialist towards another?

You are trying to include them in your argument.

[–] [email protected] -3 points 5 days ago

Go look at that first sentence you keep quoting. It says ALL without any exceptions.

The truth is the “theory” they profess is unproven and you accept it all as fact and I do not based on the lack of evidence to support the claim.

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