Very telling that people seem to confuse terrorists mass-murdering civilians with the struggle of the Palestinian people.
this post was submitted on 08 Oct 2023
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Yep and not wanting Palestinians to die anymore means you hate the Jews. The gaslight is spooky.
I agree with the statement that you are making, but, if I may be pedantic for just a moment, the way that your example was worded is not an example of gaslighting; it is actually an example of something called "affirming the disjunct".
I appreciate the identification of the fallacy.
That said, the use of fallacious arguments is the tool by which one gaslights. They aren't mutually exclusive.
When you use fallacies intentionally to convince someone that their basic and true point is wrong... That's a form of gaslight.
The term doesn't need to only apply to relationships. Political gaslights have become increasingly prevalent through social media.
That said, the use of fallacious arguments is the tool by which one gaslights. They aren’t mutually exclusive.
Fair point in that they aren't mutually exclusive, but I would disagree that logical fallacies are then only means used to gaslight. Gaslighting is the action by which an abuser sews doubt in one's own judgement, and beliefs -- that can be done any number of ways.
When you use fallacies intentionally to convince someone that their basic and true point is wrong… That’s a form of gaslight.
Gaslighting isn't necessarily attempting to convince someone that what they believe is wrong, it's meant to cause someone to question reality, their own sanity, beliefs, memories, etc. This can of course be used to sway average public opinion in the direction of a desired agenda, but it's not trying to convince change in one's opinion, I would argue.
The term doesn’t need to only apply to relationships. Political gaslights have become increasingly prevalent through social media.
Oh, for sure. A simple example would be the official denial of a true event's occurence.
This. I'm against Hamas, and I'm also against the current government of Israel. I'm at a point of only caring for civilians of Israel and Palestine after reading up on the history of the conflict. Any one else? They're part of the problem.
Israel's right-wing government is becoming anti-democratic, and their position on settlements is antagonistic.
But Hamas is pro-genocide, happily murders Jewish children, and use their own children as meat shields.
It bothers me that people equate these two.
They aren't the same.
The israeli government also has killed a shit ton of people. There's two villains here and one huge and persistent, the other is resourceful and brutal. They aren't the same but the media is insistent on portraying Hamas as the sole villain here and people are rightful to push back on that narrative.
In fairness, the other doesn't have to be resourceful and brutal. They already have it all. They live in wealth, have the vast majority of land, and just shove these people into tighter cages then wonder why they get more violent.
It's kind of incredible how both Hamas and Likud have escalated and antagonized so much that the PLO now look like the adults in the room by comparison.
Palestinians are desperate and brutally oppressed. Isreal literally wants to genocide them. This situation gives them the excuse they've always wanted. They should take it. Wipe them all out quick instead of the slow concentration of the Gaza strip. I understand that this opinion is brutal, but there's no hope in hell for the Palestinians. The world just doesn't care enough about the poor and marginalized.
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Sure, we can accept that they're not the same. At the same time, no one should support either of them.
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What's awful is you see this both with people who dislike Hamas, and with people who support the Palestinians. There's plenty of "um actually" folks I've seen on Lemmy who are putting Hamas in a sympathetic light under the guise of Palestinian liberation. And you need not look far to find people who lump all Palestinians together with those terrorists.
The rally was well intentioned, I hope, but horribly tone deaf. It would've been better to recast it as support for Palestinians and Israeli civilians, given current events, and condemned Hamas for hurting both.
I hate how often nuance is lost, and that you have to very loudly point out the nuance to make sure it's clear, but that's the world we live in. This rally failed to do that.
The rally is exactly what Hamas wants. It's the reason they use human shields.
Agreed actually. It benefits them but hurts Palestinians for the two to be conflated.
You mean like how people confuse Israelis with their government? Both are wrong.
Israel's response to that includes leveling buildings. Sometimes offices. Sometimes hospitals. Sometimes apartments. Oh, always with excuses about those terrorists hiding there... but also with pre-bombings, as a warning, which only the innocent will use to flee their homes with as many possessions as they can carry.
These people didn't violently disrupt civilians partying at the contested border just because they were bored.
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That article is kind of odd in its linking NYC DSA so heavily with a rally it didn’t organize and at which zero prominent DSA members were seen. I can’t find anything on their web site “endorsing” it. In the last paragraph, there’s even a quote from an actual organizer criticizing DSA for not having a presence at the rally.
It kind of makes me wonder if it’s a smear campaign by the city’s establishment Democrats. In NYC, DSA is probably a bigger threat to their power than any other party.
Threads like this always blow my mind. People supporting Hamas here, you realize they're the same as Isis right?
They're literally dragging women thru the streets raping them, while people stand by and cheer. They're targeting women and children in the streets, non combatants. They're taking hostages as human shields and bragging about it.
Can people really support this? I can't support many of the actions of the Israeli government, but this is quite clearly not a case of both sides being the same and Hamas is the one making that abundantly clear with their horrific actions.
And you can support the plight of the Palestinians without supporting Hamas. The Palestinians elected Hamas in 2006, but since then Hamas has cancelled elections.
Imagine if Trump decided to cancel the 2020 elections (he wouldn't have the power to do so under our political system, but just assume he found a way). Would the fact that he was elected in 2016 mean that he was still the legitimate political leader in 2023 having cancelled elections? Of course not.
Hamas' leaders live in luxury outside of the Israel/Gaza Strip/West Bank area. (I believe they're in Qatar.) They don't care if the Palestinian people suffer and die as long as they can blame it on the Israelis and spin it into more attacks on Israel.
Hamas needs to go not just for Israel's sake, but for the sake of the Palestinian people.
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Yeah they're terrorists, so is Israel. Difference is they were radicalized by Israel occupying their land for decades.
Palestinian children tortured, used as shields by Israel: U.N. | Reuters https://www.reuters.com/article/us-palestinian-israel-children/palestinian-children-tortured-used-as-shields-by-israel-u-n-idUSBRE95J0FR20130620
That's not the only difference. I distinctly don't remember a time where Israeli soldiers dragged slaves through Tel Aviv to the cheers of a Jewish population.
I don't know of any "good actors" in Middle East politics. The state of Israel was basically founded on genocide:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1948_Palestinian_expulsion_and_flight
In 1948 more than 700,000 Palestinian Arabs – about half of prewar Palestine's Arab population – fled from their homes or were expelled by Zionist militias,[1][2][3][4][5][6][7][8] during the 1948 Palestine war.[9] The exodus was a central component of the fracturing, dispossession and displacement of Palestinian society, known as the Nakba,[10][11] in which between 400 and 600 Palestinian villages were destroyed, village wells were poisoned in a biological warfare programme and properties were looted to prevent Palestinian refugees from returning
Ya 75 years ago shit went down. Then they fought for 20 years and 50 years ago cease fire lines were drawn and peace lines followed. 2-3 generations have happened since the conflict ended. They're not going anywhere on either side.
Now you have one side literally enslaving and raping civilians from the other side while demanding genocide and another side that has trouble figuring out how to respond to rockets fired from hospitals and schools.
No modern country isn't built on Genocide. Heck some of my ancestors were only where they were because of Jackson and the trail of tears. But let's be clear, everybody would condem me if I advocated for a genocide in Georgia so my surviving kinfolk could reclaim their homeland. And the same principle exists in Palestine.
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I hate to break it to these assholes but if mass murdering and raping children aren't among the acts where you draw a line, then you need to get the hell off this planet. Those are not legitimate targets - those are a fucking war crimes. Same goes for everyone regardless of affiliations.
I mostly agree with you, and that should include Israel. Israel does not deserve support as long as it supports Zionism any more or less than Hamas. I agree this is horrible, and the whole situation is horrible. We should cut support to Israel and continue to not support Hamas.
I don't care about Zionism. As far as I'm concerned every government on Earth - including my own US - who kills innocent people through action and inaction should have to answer for it. The individuals who did it, from top to bottom, should have to answer for their crimes.
Unfortunately we live in the real world - aka hell. Nothing will change and people will keep on being horrible and never be called to account.
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