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This is awful, and there are no good sides to it. Hamas are terrorists, and the Israeli government's actions have made this kind of thing inevitable.
A lot of innocent people on both sides will die, nothing will get resolved, and both sides will continue to do horrible things to each other.
This sucks.
Iranian goverment is celebrating the attack they backed.
Thousands will die from their weapons. Thousands more will be permanently disfigured or injured. Hamas put their HQ right in downtown, so when it got predictably destroyed, it hurt a bunch of civilians.
Not surprising since the Saudis and Israel were finally starting to make up, which Iran hates. But sad nonetheless. I hope the Israelis and Palestinians can come to an agreement, and that Iran gets a better, more peaceful government. But I doubt it.
:(
I hate absolutely everything to do with this.
Is there a way that a nation can use the same means their oppressor uses to perpetuate apartheid for the purposes of resisting apartheid and not be labeled as "terrorist"?
No. It will invariably be called terrorism.
ANC carried out terror bombings intentionally targeting civilians too after first trying non-violent protests, then trying sabotage, then targeting military, and not getting results. And they were called terrorists as well despite certainly doing far less harm than the regime they fought, and ignoring that while civilian, the majority of their victims were voters who had an active role in continuing to vote in the regimes engaged in the oppression.
The only way to stop being labeled terrorist is to win the conflict, like the ANC.
This is not a criticism of the ANC, btw.. On a personal level I think some of their actions were deplorable, but I also think that it is fundamentally not up to any of us to judge the armed resistance of the oppressed unless we are actively fighting that oppression in better, more effective ways.
In other words: Personally, I think that anyone who is not personally at a minimum engaged in efforts to end Israeli oppression that is likely to right now be achieving more than armed Palestinian resistance has no moral standing to judge their actions.
And nobody here is.
There was a joke on Rick and Morty that Rick got the Palestinians and the Israelis to sign the treaty of "peace plan that works if you think about it a bit".
I am sure every commenter has one of those plans in their back pocket that would work if implemented. The problem is there is no incentive. In Palestinine, Hamas grows stronger the more Palestinians hate Isreal, and their opposition grows stronger the more Palestinians want peace. Meanwhile Likud grows stronger the more Israelis hate Palestinians, and the opposition grows stronger when Israelis want peace. Why would either side implement something that would decrease their power?
The sad thing is that the people dying for this usually aren't anywhere remotely near the level of the people that have power to lose or keep. Dying for the sake of rich assholes all the way down
Fuck islamist terrorism. Fuck Hamas.
I agree, but also fuck apartheid and fuck Israel
Fuck them both basically, but for different reasons.
POTUS Biden already gave a response on supporting their military ally, Israel, and if I see one more braindead fucking comment like "sUrE BUt WhERe wAs HAwAiI's FaST ReSPoNsE?" Within 4 hours he sent aid an national guard response, idk how right wingers keep using that stupid fucking talking point.
That said I really don't appreciate the onesidedness of the USA response, I have much higher hopes for the UN council assigned to this issue and any UN Task Forces deployed in the future. I believe Israel mostly caused this issue on their own by the apartheid oppression of Palestinians, I think this outcome and many other attrocities would have been completely avoided in the timeline where Rabin wasn't assassinated
How can Hamas even think they have an iota of a chance against a military power like Israel?
It makes no sense.
It makes sense, but not the way you think. They know they are going to lose. They know they are going to suffer greater retaliation. But they will have to endure it. And they know many of them will die because of it. They were ready to face the consequences.
I don't think this campaign is against the Israeli government. It's a strategic move targeted towards the illegal Israeli settlers and those who dare to encroach into the disputed Palestinian land! - to instill traumatic fear. It's a warning message to these people, even though the have the best military and the best surveillance techs, the government can't protect them. A stern message to them: If you dare to take this land from us, one day we will come to take it back from you, even your life, at the time you least expected and every efforts you put before will be in vain.
You're forgetting the key aspect -- they want Israel to attack. These are hardcore committed militants. They want to kill their enemies or die trying. They want other people to feel the same way, but too many Palestinians are just trying to live their lives and survive day-to-day.
By attacking Israel, they know they're going to prompt a vicious counter attack that will kill and maim a lot of Palestinians. That's good from the point of view of the Palestinian militants. More people who lose their loved ones to Israeli attacks means more angry people wanting to lash out. That means more of them will hate Israel even more, and be even more willing to risk their lives to try to destroy Israel.
It's also a gift to Netanyahu and the right-wingers in Israel. They want the Israeli population to be scared and angry, because when they're scared and angry they support the right-wingers. This instantly solves all the political and legal problems that Netanyahu had.
This is the same strategy that Osama bin Laden used with the Sept. 11th terrorist attacks, and it worked perfectly. He knew that the US would flip out and overreact and kill hundreds of thousands of people as a result. He hoped they'd attack Saudi Arabia because his biggest conflict was not with the US, but with the government there. Instead the US attacked Iraq and Afghanistan, but that was almost as good. It drove recruitment for al Qaeda, and later for the Islamic State.
Except that these attacks weren't against the settlers (who are taking land in the west bank), it's targeting the civilians in South Israel who have lived there for ages. I think the world was expecting to see this violence in the west bank, not gaza.
It still makes no sense to me from that perspective. Shouldn't they, of all people, understand that trying to frighten people into submission can instead embolden them? Israel's brutal actions against Palestinians didn't crumble Hamas. It created more support for it.
What do they think will happen now? They've attacked and kidnapped civilians. Even people sympathetic to the Palestinians plight are horrified at this.
All Hamas has done here is turn more of the world against them, brutalized civilians, and actually given Israel partial justification for their response. This is the first time in my adult life that I've seen such violence against Israel.
People can only take so much. It's part of the bully play book. Push them until they break and then blame them for everything.
A victim of bullying will eventually lash out whether or not they think they have a chance because they become desperate.
They are desperate, frustrated, angry... They are human.
Neutrally looked at, a couple of french farmers and craftmen had no chance against the french military of 1789. But they where pushed to a point where they believed doing nothing is worse than dying trying. By chance they actually stormed the Bastille and kickstarzed a very dark chapter in french history.
It's not like the position of the people of Gaza is going to improve...
They're genocidal lunatics covering their hatred in colors of justice and victimhood
They don't care about an actual chance, they just follow the directions their masters in tehran give them because they'll happily make themselves dogs if it means they get to go full turner diaries wet dream mode.
Those who make peaceful revolution impossible will make violent revolution inevitable.
This feels way too convenient for Netanyahu.
Nor really. A large part of Natenyahu's platform is security. "Keep me in power and I will protect you". He has failed in this spectacularly, and Mossads reputation will take a very significant hit. Hamas has made them look incompetent. Of course he will use this to demand more authority, but overall it is bad for him.
Somewhat, but it also undermines his "Mr. Security" image...a lot. He will assuredly blame it on the left, but when he's running against former military brass, rings hollow. Also really pulls the rug out from under his various peace accords
Are we supposed to believe Israeli intelligence missed this?
not the sort of thing that's good to wake up to. very sad
Israel has the iron dome to prevent something like this from happening, right? So why does the attack work this time?
It’s not perfect and especially a huge amount of rockets can overwhelm it. Also it’s much more effective on slower homemade rockets, not the faster kind Iran typically sells Hamas.
the faster kind Iran typically sells Hamas.
... Well, this isn't going to end well.
Saturation attacks are a common tactic to overwhelm air defense zones, but this isn't just that. Hamas and IJ fighters have begun ethnically cleansing border towns, literally gunning down shelters full of civilians, as well as parading the naked bodies of women they've raped and murdered, through the streets.
This is only a fraction of the attacks, and all on video btw, but I don't suggest watching them.
If one day someone comes to your house, the one you were born, the same house where your father was born, and his father before him. And starts killing, raping, torturing, executing, bulldozing the houses were your cousins lives, they don't let you go to your sacred places, they don't let you even move from the concentration camps and the walls they have erected.
What would you do? You fight, even if you lose you will fight, even if the world sees the injustice but simply doesn't care, you will still fight, for them you are a terrorist, but for your people you are a freedom fighter, fighting against invaders.
I would agree with this, except that afaik both groups have a legitimate historical/religious claim to the territory. Additionally, you're basically saying that Hamas is justified in slaughtering hundreds of unarmed people. I was sympathetic until they made the Las Vegas shooting look like a minor scuffle.
Seriously, I can sympathize with the frustration up to the point where suddenly murdering civilians is ok when "the good guys" are doing it.
Material conditions my ass, if it's wrong for one it's wrong for all.
And before any Hamaboos show their asses,
انا امريكاني فالاسطيني، جدي كن من بيتلحم،
My kin are not your shield for endorsing the same acts you hold up to demonize those you hate you Bougeyevik hypocrites.
What would you do?
I would not beat, rape, and murder innocent people. That seems like a low bar to clear, right? Attacking military targets and personnel might be morally justified, but certainly not what they did over the weekend.
Nah, man. If they cited all those things, or more importantly the complete stifling of Gazans' ability to prosper or flourish today, that would be one thing. What did they cite instead? The desecration of the Al-Aqsa mosque. That is more important to them than the apartheid. Fuck Hamas. They're accomplishing nothing more than the death of Palestinians and more suffering. And they just empowered the most right wing, unpopular government that Israel's ever had, one that Israelis were divided against. Hamas and the Iranian regime need to be eradicated. They are hurting any chance at Palestinian freedom and equality and right to prosperity. And they're just causing more and more every day normal Israeli/Jewish and Palestinian suffering. This Iranian regime supports the tyranny of the Syrian government over the Sunnis (and its use of chemical weapons against them), Russia's terrorist attacks on civilians in Ukraine and the invasion of that country in general, the complete undermining of the Lebanese government by Hezbollah, and the complete overthrow of the Yemeni government by a similarly tyrannical group in Yemen. And it uses of rape and sexual violence and murder against men and women protesting the death of a woman caused by the morality police and the oppression of women by the regime.
I think the only way to accomplish either a true one state democratic nation that honors Israel-Palestine as the home of Judaism or a two state solution, is boycott and divestment (because there is no way to peacefully protest and engage in civil obedience to achieve freedom and equality (they murdered a journalist and nothing came of it) and there's no way to win militarily). It worked with the apartheid government in South Africa, and hopefully it will work with Israel.
If the "fighting" means doing the exact same crimes to other innocents that is not making you the good guys.
Conflict between Israel and Palestine, color me shocked. Next you'll tell me China and Taiwan aren't the best of friends.
badly drawn maps are a major culprit. its clear many commenters are young and don't know the actual history. i'm a bit surprised by just how many pro-hamas posts ive seen. its a little disturbing. read your history. there is very little that the modern state of Israel could have done to prevent any of this. these extremists want total annihilation of israel. what can israel do against terrorists whose stated goal is to participate in a holy war which they believe is their ticket to heaven? it's an unwinnable conflict. peace talks only work if all sides actually want peace (and just disagree about how to accomplish it) every insane group of extremists across history has had to be dealt with forcefully, at some point, in some way or another, for all of human history. the japanese, germans, soviets, koreans, all needed to be dealt with, and in all cases it required overwhelming force sustained by wide coalitions over many years.
this is no different. if you are young, don't know the history, and are sitting in your room thinking there is some special concession Israel could give, that would turn this all around, its time to hit the library. The reality is that there isn't really any land in the area that would work for that. The available land that is compatible with human civilization in that part of the world, is completely full. There is no "amazon" that could be cut down to build new areas for Palestinians to live. It's a hot, arid, inhospitable part of the world, and civilization is clustered around natural rivers and mountainous locations. There's no place for anyone to go.
And then there's the ideology. Even if Israel and some broad coalition decided to invest trillions in some massive infrastructure project to make Gaza the best place in the world to live, the terrorists would still do exactly what they're doing today. The point you have to understand, is that Hamas does not care about Palestinians. Repeat that to yourself 10x and commit it to your brain forever. Islamic extremists do not care about achieving peaceful cooperation with people of other faiths and ideologies on planet earth. Nor do they even care about their own people.
People in the west are extremely soft and ignorant in some ways. They've grown up immersed in a culture of relative stability, judeo-christian ethics, etc. They have no concept that there are people out there who share none of that. They literally don't care. And the proof is all over twitter. Go watch, let it soak in.
Only a broad coalition with massive force can end this, just like every other time. otherwise its just on an endless cycle.