this post was submitted on 21 Jun 2025
31 points (94.3% liked)

libre

10026 readers
3 users here now

Welcome to libre

A comm dedicated to the fight for free software with an anti-capitalist perspective.

The struggle for libre computing cannot be disentangled from other forms of socialist reform. One must be willing to reject proprietary software as fiercely as they would reject capitalism. Luckily, we are not alone.

libretion

Resources

  1. Free Software, Free Society provides an excellent primer in the origins and theory around free software and the GNU Project, the pioneers of the Free Software Movement.
  2. Switch to GNU/Linux! If you're still using Windows in $CURRENT_YEAR, take Linux Mint for a spin. If you're ready to take the plunge, flock to Fedora! If you're a computer hobbyist and love DIY, use Arch, NixOS or the many, many other offerings out there.

Rules

  1. Be on topic: Posts should be about free software and other hacktivst struggles. Topics about general tech news should be in the technology comm or programming comm. That doesn't mean all posts have to be serious though, memes are welcome!
  2. Avoid using misleading terms/speading misinformation: Here's a great article about what those words are. In short, try to avoid parroting common Techbro lingo and topics.
  3. Avoid being confrontational: People are in different stages of liberating their computing, focus on informing rather than accusing. Debatebro nonsense is not tolerated.
  4. All site-wide rules still apply

Artwork

founded 4 years ago
MODERATORS
31
X.Org Drama (hexbear.net)
submitted 6 days ago* (last edited 6 days ago) by [email protected] to c/[email protected]
 

As the sun continues to set on the X11 display protocol, X.Org - the premier implementation - has been forked by a former developer who accuses its maintainers of "abandoning the project, and letting it rot forever."

He's not exactly wrong. X.Org is essentially mothballed. It is an enormous, complicated piece of deprecated infrastructure, with a very limited amount of resources and experienced maintainers. The corporations which sponsor Free Software development don't particularly care about desktop end-users, and the resources which are being spent on desktop experience are largely being spent on Wayland compositors. On the other hand, it appears many of his commits on X.Org were reverted for sloppy management of licensing / attribution, as well as some regressions which were introduced.

It is worth noting that when Wayland was introduced in 2008, X.Org developers were among its biggest advocates and contributors. The writing has been on the wall for a long time now, and the work of building an alternative is mostly complete.

That said, Wayland is not at all a 1 to 1 replacement for X, and like with the introduction of Systemd, there are a lot of people with strong feelings about this, a lot of conspiracy mongers cranking out YouTube slop. People throwing out accusations about how "they" are trying to ruin Linux yet again.

I personally have fond memories of X. Especially in the later days when the whole "unix porn" phenomenon bloomed and there was a sort of renaissance of customization. I miss herbstluftwm terribly. That said, I've been running Wayland for something like 6 years now and I do not really get why people hate it. It works fine, and it actually has a future.

Update:

It's also worth noting the author of this fork is a chud. Some excerpts from the README

This fork was necessary since toxic elements within Xorg projects, moles from BigTech, are boycotting any substantial work on Xorg, in order to destroy the project, to eliminate competition of their own products. Classic "embrace, extend, extinguish" tactics.

This is an independent project, not at all affiliated with BigTech or any of their subsidiaries or tax evasion tools, nor any political activists groups, state actors, etc. It's explicitly free of any "DEI" or similar discriminatory policies.

Together we'll make X great again!

you are viewing a single comment's thread
view the rest of the comments
[–] [email protected] 14 points 6 days ago (9 children)

Mfs would rather fork a decades old codebase which had its origins in mainframe computers than contribute to Wayland.

My opinion is that xorg needs to be ripped away and removed from package repos so that the collective desktop community is forced to support Wayland. Distros ripping out xorg is part of why Nvidia dropped their strong arming and actually started to work with the desktop community.

Most of Wayland's recent success is when people start using it, realize "oh shit, this needs fixing" and new protocols are created, or that people actually start correctly supporting Wayland (using portals, pipewire) instead of assuming that xorg will do everything for them.

[–] [email protected] 10 points 5 days ago* (last edited 5 days ago) (3 children)

I think what forced Nvidia's hand ultimately wasn't the transition to Wayland as a default, but the increasing gap between Nvidia's proprietary driver, proprietary EGLStream API, and proprietary OpenGL/Vulkan implementations, vs. what all their competitors got "for free." AMD and Intel have drivers in the kernel, EGL is co-maintained by AMD and Intel among others, and OpenGL/Vulkan are implemented by Mesa3D. These were all able to evolve in tandem with one-another, while Nvidia was determined to (fail at) doing all of this in-house. It manifested in shit Wayland support, shit XWayland performance, and other problems, but this probably would have never changed without there being a vastly superior alternative.

IMO, the status quo is actually fine. X.org essentially exists to implement XWayland as a compatibility layer for old software. It is maintained, but there is no interest in developing new features because nobody in their right mind is developing new software targeting X11, let alone X11 extensions introduced in 2025! Even the toolkits, GTK and Qt are moving in the direction of deprecating X11 completely. GTK 5 will not support X11, and it is likely that Qt will also draw the line sometime soon. Within a couple years, the only way to develop X11 software will be by forking deprecated versions of these toolkits, and it will be about as sensible as developing an application with GTK+ 2 or Qt 3 today.

Most of Wayland's recent success is when people start using it, realize "oh shit, this needs fixing" and new protocols are created, or that people actually start correctly supporting Wayland (using portals, pipewire) instead of assuming that xorg will do everything for them.

It has been a drawn out process, but I think it has been wise for Wayland to kind of let implementers cook on the protocols, rather than shit out a thousand pages of spec before any prototype has even been created. Some unique use cases like drag and drop between different applications, mouse pointer grabs/warps, etc. have suffered from this, but essential functions DO get implemented, if not universalized right away.

[–] [email protected] 8 points 5 days ago* (last edited 5 days ago) (2 children)

it will be about as sensible as developing an application with GTK+ 2 or Qt 3 today

GNU imp developers in shambles.

[–] [email protected] 5 points 5 days ago

It's finally been ported to GTK 3 as of earlier this year

load more comments (1 replies)
load more comments (1 replies)
load more comments (6 replies)