this post was submitted on 06 Nov 2024
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So you're saying I should make friends with people who also intensely dislike people?
I would challenge that's not your authentic self. That's learned behavior.
If you have been constantly othered or made to feel out of place you will grow resentment towards certain people, and eventually people as a whole.
When everyone is authentic and kind, community happens. Consider people who LARP.. they likely would get mocked alone if a single one went to the mall, but in a community with shared expectations and values they have a lot of fun!
Learning one's authentic self is a journey. Learning boundaries (which allow you to stick to that authentic self) is also a journey. But I do recommend.
Compulsory disclaimer before I begin. I am not a mental health professional but I'm autistic and it's my special interest. I have read dozens of psychology books, watched interviews, and have thousands of hours of research into this stuff. I love it and it's changed my life. HOWEVER.. that doesn't mean I'm a pro, and these are topics that require a pro past a certain surface level. If that's on the table, I can't recommend it enough. If you get a therapist and don't click with them in the first hour or so, I recommend moving on to another one. It's super common in that world and not seen as offensive. If you cannot or are not ready, I don't mind chatting with you a bit and I'll tell you the beginning.
So you can answer a couple questions for this. Don't feel obligated to share your answers with me, but you're welcome to if you feel like you want to.
Question 1: Do you know you're masking?
Yes: If you do, that is voluntary masking and you can "catch" it and try to correct. Practice makes perfect. A good example of this would be if the Boss is in town and you decide to dress a little nicer and use the big business words when you talk to them. It's a deliberate act and it can have a purpose.
No: If you feel drained after dealing with people and you know you're not really "one of them" even though on the surface level that would be hard to prove, that would be subconscious masking. There are many kinds but the most common category would be trauma-based. A trauma mask can be visualized like this (this is fiction, domestic abuse trigger warning): [a wife comes home to her husband already drunk and about to get physical with the kids. She's calm in the moment, handles the husband and pacifies him. Gets him in the recliner, gets him fed and with his remote and another beer (against her wishes), and he eventually passes out in the chair. Everyone is safe. That night when all the kids are in bed, she breaks down shaking from the stress of the whole ordeal.] << That would be a description of a trauma mask. Trauma masks kick in automatically and you may not even know it's happening in the moment but afterwards you have anxiety, feel sick, or just plain exhausted.
Question 2: Are you autistic (also sometimes wrongly called Asperger’s Syndrome)?
No: Disregard. Just for giggles, read the "yes" as well. Autism is massively under-diagnosed.
Yes: So if you're autistic (I very briefly looked through your posts. You seem to program and have a strong sense of justice... I'm just saying I would look into it.) If you want to know more let me know, I can show you some tests that can get you a pretty good idea. Anyway, if you're autistic, the whole thing about trauma masking could apply to your entire existence and you may not even know it. It sounds insane but it's true and a super common shared experience among especially late-diagnosed autistics, like if you're an adult and don't know you're autistic yet.
Conclusion:
If you answered "yes/no" or "yes/yes", you have already begun your progress by being curious! Don't forget you can have voluntary and subconscious masking at the same time so as you figure out your voluntary stuff, some subconscious stuff may still be there.
If you answered "no/no" or "no/yes" I would recommend a book by Devon Price, PhD called Unmasking Autism. Even if you're not autistic or in some other way neurodivergent the tools to find one's authentic self are the same (both are trauma masks, remember?). The book can be a little heavy but it's well worth it. It has a unique way to call out stuff that we'd never even think to complain about but is super valid.
I know this was a long ass reply. I'm happy to write more. If you have questions or want those autism questionnaires, just let me know. I'm not affiliate or anything, and they're free and anonymous as far as I'm aware.
Hey there, sorry this took so long to answer. I usually only have time to get on and type real answers at night.
A good way to find out is a combination of a couple tests. The RAADS-R is the most accurate known autism test. It is known to be over 80% accurate by itself. Here is a free one that doesn’t require registration: https://embrace-autism.com/raads-r/
I would combine that with this one, especially if you're high-masking (this would feel like doubting you're autistic too, but the doubt itself is not a diagnostic criteria): the CAT-Q is a good test to identify camouflaged autistic traits that you’ve learned to hide. This one is also free from the same place: https://embrace-autism.com/cat-q/
BTW/FWIW if you’re 18+ there is less reason to get formally diagnosed. University of Washington did a study some time ago which found self diagnosis is rarely wrong. The paper states, "We believe that if you have carefully researched the topic and strongly resonate with the experience of the autistic community, you are probably autistic." Link to that PDF here: https://depts.washington.edu/uwautism/wp-content/uploads/2022/09/Self-Diagnosed-Adult-Autism-Resources-handout-9-22-22.pdf
As always, feel free to ask if you have questions even if it's not autism stuff. No promises but I'll try my best. :) It’s a big world to navigate if you're new to it.
Sorry for the long replies. I'm interested in trying to help if you are too. But I'm not trying to over extend here either. Let me know if you want to stop. I know it probably doesn't seem like it but I'm putting probably 20 min in on each of these just trying to cut them down to a "normal" size.. I could literally write a book on this!
A couple things: Idk what your scores are but basically the higher you get on the CAT-Q (2nd test) the higher the score should be on the RAADS-R (1st test). IIRC, the highest score ever formally recorded by someone allistic (not autistic) on the RAADS-R was 64. The other thing is, a lot of people don't know how either that what they're doing is "different" from allistic people, or they don't know they're doing it. For example, I wondered I was autistic for years and did test probably 5-6 times before I met someone autistic that was just like me and it all "clicked". For this reason I would recommend doing the test with someone that was around you when you were very young if you can. I will also give some examples below of some of those things that don't stand out right away if that's not possible.
That said, we have a couple possibilities.
You simply may not be autistic. There are conditions that could look similar to autism enough to make you wonder if you are or "show up" on the test but maybe not be very high on it. cPTSD is a common one if you lived in a long-term environment when you were not physically or emotionally safe. This is a strong possibility because given that you have ADHD, there's an extremely high chance you either grew up poor or had some sort of scarcity issues (one or more of love, food, shelter, etc)--this is believed to be the leading cause of ADHD. Remember that an estimated 80% of autistic people have ADHD, but that can be from the fact that life is pretty shit when you're autistic and don't know it! Less likely but possible could also be OCD or even dyslexia, both of which are SO MUCH bigger than people think.
(This one happened to me, so I'll bring it up): You may have learned the "right" answers to these so long ago you think it's the real you's opinions. Here's a couple of late diagnosed things a lot of us go through:
First off, so sorry I missed your message.. no idea what happened. I was like "I wonder what happened to that person on lemmy" and came looking and your reply was marked as "seen". The good news is, I have read up on OCD and dyslexia in case one of them resonated with you, so I'm feeling fresh lol.
Secondly, what sorts of OCD behaviors did you do as a child? That seems to be the next path to explore.
Thirdly, when I say "look through people", here's an example: my boss will come up with the intention to have me hop on a project. I will often know he wants this just based on how he opens the conversation (occasionally not). Then, I will know exactly what he expects and he will think about it and be like "oh we should do this" when I knew full well he was going to say this (this is more frequent). I don't know if this is more clear but hopefully that's clearer. I don't mean social cues, which seems to be more like what you're describing. I'm autistic, so I'm bad at them. If they're properly described, I can do them fine but they're typically not intuitive.
Forth, I match nearly all your answers for what it's worth. Do with that what you will. I'm specifically AuDHD (pronounced ow-D-H-D, which means ADHD and Autistic too, so that could be some reasons like switching special interests. Also for psychology, my longest special interest, I did not discover I liked it until I was in my late 20s. Before that I would switch. I still switch on others (cars, computers, gaming, LEGO and some others) and have moved on from others (Barney as a kid, art, BMX) but for some reason psychology "stuck". Maybe it's getting older, idk.
Fifth, I have a couple more questions I thought of after.
Lastly, to answer your question, autism is a neurological condition that is decided genetically from conception. There is no cure, but you could argue that there is nothing to cure (and this is key) in the right environment. There's a good argument to be made that it's a disability when we're forced to be who we're not and the world is not build for us. And obviously, there are high support needs people that would probably always be considered disabled, but that's a LONG chat for another time. THAT SAID: There is stuff to that can be done. That is also a long chat, but if you are autistic (or whatever, this applies to other stuff too) and you don't know, then you by definition have a LOT to learn about yourself. Truth is you will probably figure it out in time (think the old man that hates change always tinkers in the shed... probably autistic AF and never knew, but he's in his zone and happy) but getting a name for things can fast track you decades and help you find people that "get it" and can turn out to be amazing friends for it. Most people in this boat find the experience transformative and hugely beneficial. I'll be honest. It's hard, but it's worth it.
Hope this helps and that you had a good week. Look forward to hearing back from you!
Hey there, so the first example does seem fairly OCD--like the real kind. A lot of people reference it wrongly so I wanted to double check.
Idioms are phrases that don't make literal sense. For example in the USA, saying that someone is "all that and a bag of chips" means they are exceptional or really cool. Or that a task was a "piece of cake" means that task was easy.
So to be frank I have dug into each nugget of what you said (I cataloged it, because of course I did lol). And you have every sign of being autistic. I made a list of highlights:
I have a friend that identifies with these symptoms. What could the root cause be, if any? - Masking in social situations
Not knowing one's self (original post about masking)
Has ADHD (you mentioned)
Hates eye contact (I asked)
Authenticity is a highly rated trait in relationships (I asked)
Does not like small talk like thank you/good morning (You mentioned)
Deep-dives interests for a long time (You mentioned): "for a long time" is important here. ASD/AuDHD typically does them for a long time. "Pure" ADHD does them usually less than a week, often to the point where they forget to eat or sleep.
No sensory issues but does prefer comfortable clothes over appearance (asked/told): I would argue that's sensory-driven (comfort is your sense of touch), but may be nothing to be fair.
Notices traits of utensils but does not bother them (asked): Even noticing them is not typical of allistic people. Could be nothing too, but this is potential sensory thing #2.
Feels different from others (asked): Super common for ADHD and ASD
OCD symptoms as a child: Common for ASD kids too. As many as 38% of ASD people have OCD as well, compared to 7% of the general population.
Seeing through people's intentions when trying (asked): Fairly common, especially of the PDA (Pathological Demand Avoidant) profile of ASD. I will write about this a bit at the bottom.
Can see flirting but does not know how to flirt (asked): Not knowing how to flirt is super common for ASD
Resonates with the example of "old man that hates change always tinkers in the shed"(you mentioned): This is something that resonates frequently with ASD people because of the predictability and being ok with solo activity.
Before I go on: The PDA profile of ASD is basically that being met with demands will trigger anxiety/fight-or-flight (demands could be anything like: questions, plans, decisions, instructions, time constraints and more). The difference is, all those are fine if you consent. Example, We have had this chat and you consented to the parts you answered. But what if your significant other needed you to run to the store while they were making dinner with no notice. Would it be a little annoying or would you total dread it/it would give you anxiety? PDA people also have higher than average social skills when they need to. Example, can you almost magically tell when someone is trying to sell you something or wants something from you? You may be PDA. PDA is huge and has literal books on it, but I credit it with the reason I often considered being autistic (sounds like you considered this before, yes?), but when I would look into it I "wasn't".
Ok all that said: if it's not ASD or some alternate profile (what used to be called Asperger's Syndrome, or the PDA profile), I am totally stumped. You show so many markers it's wild. I have no idea how you scored so low on the test. The test is only 80% accurate, so 1 in 5 can't be diagnosed by it so maybe that's why. But you have had OCD symptoms as a kid (OCD has 38% comorbidity with ASD) and currently identify as ADHD (up to 80% comorbidity with ASD). Not liking change and being ADHD simply don't fit together as well. And you survived all these long ass write-ups haha, but that could be the novelty-seeking to be fair! I'm not trying to tell you what you are but IMHO you 110% are autistic and other stuff is helping to hide it. Side note, if me telling you I think you're autistic is repulsive (this includes earlier in the conversation, like when you said the tests were no different than past tests), PLEASE look into the PDA profile. That is exactly how it would feel. I had a buddy I knew was autistic and it took me 4 months of patience to get him to believe me.
I would love to hear your thoughts.
P.s. I'm glad you've caught up on some rest. Diagnosis aside, rest is healthy for everyone and self care is so so important!
Future me here: sorry it's a book lmao. I got typing and next thing I knew it's like 1,000 words. I went through and tried to trim it down as best I could.
So with allistics, as far as I can understand (because I'm not), often the little interruptions that are annoying to us are much less so to them. Pushing through social situations may not "recharge" them (aka they're introverted) but they can typically do it much easier than neurodivergent people. If you need to be specifically engaged to find social situations intuitive, I would argue you do not find them intuitive. I would bet you're probably checking a million little things in your head about what they said, how they said it, body language, and so on. Allistics don't focus that close on it. As best as I can see, allistic communication is like 85% vibe and 15% information. Autistic is more like 90-100% information, depending on "how autistic" the people communicating are. Vibes are still there, but are not felt so much as deduced based on a bunch of little details we see. Broadly speaking, autistic people assemble information from the ground up (little pieces fit together to make a bigger model of something), and allistics assemble information from the top down (often this looks like they want the absolute MINIMUM information and almost seem to get stressed with detail). Example, I work in a PC repair shop. My neurotypical (NT) customers will want to hear "your computer is fixed and ready to be picked up" and the autistic customers will want to know a lot more detail (hey this was a bad firmware update and it damaged a stick of RAM. That led to the lasted Windows update to corrupt and caused your bluescreen) and maybe even learn from the interaction.
Hating change is not the autistic trait. Craving order and routine is. If you are both ADHD and Autistic (this is called AuDHD), often this is obscured because the two conditions want different things. ADHD likes novelty, and Autism likes routine so you would get a bit of both if that's the case. And the symptoms are similar too, but a little different. For example, ADHD will hyperfocus to the point where you forget your needs like eating, but Autism will have special interests that will seem similar but for longer. For me, a hyperfocus may be for a day or two, but a special interest is like 3 months minimum, and I typically will come back to them over time. ADHD will often not return to old hyperfixations.
I'm not saying you're for sure autistic, that's for you to decide. But if you are autistic, it's not a disability in itself. It becomes a disability because the world is not made for autistic people. When I first learned I was autistic (this is about 2 years ago now), I had a similar mindset (not wanting to appropriate the term "autistic" is actually common in late-diagnosed people, and I was no exception). Anyway, this is what I did:
I tried to go through and learn the vocabulary and see how much of it applied to me. (First time I took the RAADS-R test I got like 70, and now after years of processing and remembering things I score like 140+). Once you know the words for things, if you're autistic, you're probably going to have some "ah-ha" moments where things begin to click.
Then, as you have names for things and learn, some of the fixes will be intuitive. Hate eye contact? Don't make it with strangers. Or do so minimally. It's unbelievably freeing. Like a routine? Do them, and protect them. I get pizza every Friday, and unless something incredible is happening, I don't miss it. Some things are a little less intuitive. Learning to unmask is a HUGE task and arguably far more to learn and do than understanding autism is. Which brings us to step 3.
Learning to unmask (what you called unlearning). This is a massive process and there's a really good chance that you don't even know all the ways you mask (you sort of mentioned this in the idiom point, where you don't know if they're intuitive or you just learned them already). The book I recommended Unmasking Autism by Devon Price is great for this. Some of it may seem too "soft" or dramatic based on you not wanting to be held down by this, but I would recommend it anyway. Remember it's written for a wide audience, and some of us have it worse than others.
As you learn to unmask, social situations become easier. Remember that autistic masking is a form of trauma masking, much like a domestic violence victim would "snap into action"? Well once you learn to heal from that stuff, the masking is more voluntary, like acting. And at that point it's not your body freaking out in fight-or-flight, it's just performing an act. And if you're in a position where you can reduce social interactions to a routine (common in retail, sales, and so on), then it's even easier. If you feel dumb when you're in social situations, or if you feel smarter when you're alone and allowed time to solve problems, this will also get easier. Fight-or-flight impacts the activity in your frontal lobe and will make you literally dumber while it's happening. Not your fault, it's just how brains work.
So there is some debate about the PDA profile being real or not. A lot of people seem to identify with it, but it also very much seems to be anxiety-fueled so the medical community is like "oh that's just autism plus stress". The one thing that is agreed on is, getting your anxiety down is key. You can look into what you're eating, if you're agreeing to social commitments you do not want to go to, and a million more things. Impossible for me to say from here really. But start saying "no" when you can safely do so and make time to do your hobbies and not feel sorry for it. Also, about 2-3 years ago, the University of Stanford found that the visual pattern of moving forward (think the animation of the Star Wars lightspeed effect), literally calms you at the neurological level. Going for a walk of any length daily can be hugely beneficial for your health. I know it's a cliche but it's true.
As you learn these skills, you will slowly but surely find stressors and remove them happily. There is a good chance you have at least one narcissist in your life if you're neurodivergent. You'll likely identify one or a few of them and get away from them.
Lastly, find friends that are like you. I know, easier said than done. But if you're autistic, try to find local groups and go be weird together without judgement. I found out I'm actually an extrovert, but a super selective one. Most people drain me, but MY people make feel great when I'm around them. It makes it so much easier when you're not getting shit on for not making eye contact, or if you want to squeeze some putty while you talk. If you're high masking, you'll likely feel a little angry because these people are not masking like you've had to. It's a normal part of the process. Just notice it and move on. I don't think you can add friends on Lemmy yet but I have most other platforms. I'm assuming you speak English because your written English is fantastic. And if not that's fine. Either way, I'm happy to be your first autistic friend, even if you're not. I personally think we're a lot easier to deal with but maybe I'm biased lol
For sure man, anxiety can come from a lot of things, but no matter what it's from it can put you in a brain fog.
Looking back, I was lucky enough to have a group of friends in high school which we cleverly called "the group" (lol), and we were all weird and very likely neurodivergent. One thing I learned early was, weird people are a lot more authentic and authentic is much safer. Sounds like you have had a similar experience.
I'll hit you up in a dm for contact info. I am also barely on SM... shits cancer imo. I'm going to leave this conversation thread here in the event that maybe someone can take value from it in some amount of time, if that's cool with you.